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KombiMarc
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Joined: January 29, 2010
Posts: 431
Location: Phoenix, Az
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 Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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[quote="KombiMarc"]ray, is there a specific part number you are aware of?[/quote
found this one:Ty3 61-73 dual circuit Repair kit part # 111698181B, in VW blue box
or this one:311 698 181 looks like ATE Box
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'65 Type I
'65 Type II Kombi Rebuild Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=459009 |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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[quote="KombiMarc"]
| KombiMarc wrote: |
ray, is there a specific part number you are aware of?[/quote
found this one:Ty3 61-73 dual circuit Repair kit part # 111698181B, in VW blue box
or this one:311 698 181 looks like ATE Box |
The parts in the VW blue boxes are usually complete kits......pistons assembled with seals, valves and springs. When they are like that.....they can usually be used on either ATE or FAG cylinders as the piston spacing is the same in most models between ATE and FAG.
The issue with keeping the brands seperate is mainly to eo with the fact that the fit of the seals on the pistons was different between the brands. In other words.....if I put ATE seals on an FAG piston or vice versa. There were fit issues.
Also check that the letter code in the VW # did not pertain to a specific brand. Some VW kits were also Schaffer brand that had seals made a little different that fit well with both ATE and FAG and were listed as universal kits.
But....just remember...while you can swap an ATE complete piston and seal stack into an FAG or vice versa......with type 3......mand you could do it within type 4 parts as well........you cannot swap any type 3 piston into a type 4 cylinder or vise versa.
The piston head spacing is different between type 3 and 4. You can use everything in a type 3 kit EXCEPT the pistons. Ray |
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titan3c
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Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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I was just out looking under the dash and checking out my tools before starting to remove the master cylinder. Now the only chance this cylinder would have ever been removed was in 1977 when I had a leak. I took it to a VW dealer for the job. Now this cylinder has been there ever since.
Now I noticed something different. The Brake lines are on the bottom, and the brake light switches are on top. Does that make any difference in the normal function of the master cylinder? Bob |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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| titan3c wrote: |
I was just out looking under the dash and checking out my tools before starting to remove the master cylinder. Now the only chance this cylinder would have ever been removed was in 1977 when I had a leak. I took it to a VW dealer for the job. Now this cylinder has been there ever since.
Now I noticed something different. The Brake lines are on the bottom, and the brake light switches are on top. Does that make any difference in the normal function of the master cylinder? Bob |
Yes.....that is correct. On the factory type 4 specific cylinder.....the brake lines are on the bottom side holes and the internal holes are about 3mm.
The brake light switches are on top and have smaller holes like 1.5mm.
The brake cylinder in my picture.....bear in mind.....is not a type 4 cylinder. Whatever car it was from....the cylinder was flipped 180° with the pushrod pushing toward the front of the car. The switches are on the bottom on the master cylinder I am using
Looking at MY current MC configuration......many things now come back to mind.
While the stock type 3 cylinder appears to be the closest to type 4 in bore, stroke and pressure for each circuit.....the type 3 MC CASTING.....will not work in the under dash bracket position where I have this one.
This is because on the type 3....the lines come out one side and the switches are on the other side.....on the same plane. In order to use the type 3 cylinder.....my bracket would have had to extend an extra 2" away from the pedal cluster to make room for the switches.
I would have had to extend the clevis pin at the top of the pedal.....and I was pressed for time.
I did test the type 3 MC in the car with the underdash bracket...crudely.....by installing it with the cylinder almost at a 90° angle. The fluid inlet from the reservoir went in at about the 3 o'clock position....switches facing down and fluid lines facing.....up-ish....but it put the brake fluid lines hard up against the pedal cluster.
The cylinder I have in the car is standard beetle dual circuit. My little black book notes that its an FAG super beetle cylinder.
I will have to verify.
But....my notes were....that to get it to work like a type 3 or type 4 cylinder.....I had to remove 3/16" from the inner cicuit piston stop.....that tail on the end of the inner piston.....and I had to use the outer circuit spring and stop from the type 4 piston.
I will post pictures of what these parts are in the am. Ray |
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titan3c
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Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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| Yep, I noticed that about the type 3 cylinder. The late model beetle cylinder is OK.------If compatible . |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:21 am Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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Some thoughts about adapting a mc with mounting ears on the end. If you notice the type 4 mc has about a quarter inch offset for the mounting portion. The "L" bracket adapter could be the exact thickness of this offset, or could be adjusted with shims for proper alignment. The left ear on the adapting mc could be cut off to fit snugly in a slot cut in the "L" bracket at the bend. Also if there is enough room left on the ear, two mounting points of small enough diameter could straddle what's left of the original mounting hole, and bolt to the end of the L bracket. Another thought--mounting points could be on the end of the ear straddling the original mounting hole with a tapered flat head bolt to the L bracket----that's with no slot in the L bracket.
Hope I explained this so you can understand it.. Bob |
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titan3c
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Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:37 am Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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| Ok here I go again----I'm sitting here and my thoughts are on a roll. Another thought about the type 3 cylinder.. Would it be practical to relocate the switches, and connect them with a brake line? |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:26 am Post subject: Re: New master cylinder |
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| titan3c wrote: |
Some thoughts about adapting a mc with mounting ears on the end. If you notice the type 4 mc has about a quarter inch offset for the mounting portion. The "L" bracket adapter could be the exact thickness of this offset, or could be adjusted with shims for proper alignment. The left ear on the adapting mc could be cut off to fit snugly in a slot cut in the "L" bracket at the bend. Also if there is enough room left on the ear, two mounting points of small enough diameter could straddle what's left of the original mounting hole, and bolt to the end of the L bracket. Another thought--mounting points could be on the end of the ear straddling the original mounting hole with a tapered flat head bolt to the L bracket----that's with no slot in the L bracket.
Hope I explained this so you can understand it.. Bob |
 .....its so fun watching someone else going through the madness that I spent going through with the MC issue on these cars.......and its good that we ard working on this.
That last thought you had.....is exactly what is in my car right now. The super beetle cylinder is installed with the left side ear cut off to fit close enough to the pedal cluster fo stay on the pushrod center line. 
Yes.....the very first effort I made....and thiis was back in 2000 I think....I actually had a type 4 master cylinder core that was beyond repair.......thatI largely removed the cylinder from woth a vertical band saw and a die grinder at work.
I was thinking of making a bolt on "cradle" out of it....to make a bracket that could hold another part of a bracket......to hold a totally different type of cylinder. Of course it did not work out.....but it was a great excercise to help figure out what angles were important and what could and could not be done.
Then the thought came.....same one you had......of how far from the pedal cluster does the cast on bracket for the type 4 cylinded......place it from the centerline?
So the next thought was find a plate to make the two bolt bracket.....and weld on an angle iron to ot.....to hold the mounting ear end of a type 3 cylinder. The problem......is.....as you have found......that if you leave both ears on the type 3 or type 1 MC.....it places it too far off the pedal pushrod centerline.....no matter what the thickness of the mounting plate is. At least....too far off the pushrod centerline to use the pushrod without modifications
To add to that.....you have to remember that its not just the thickness of the mounting bracket of the original type 4 cylinder....which is closer to 3/8"....but the heads of the bolts holding it on.
The other issue as you note.....can you move the brake light switches and connect them via hoses......yes....my thought process moved there as well.....and I can say you probably do not want to do that. Lots of leak potential....lots of potential for more mess under the dash.
When I tested the type 3 cylinder under the dash with no switches.....just the switch ports plugged off....I realized that it would be far simpler and a LOT more reliable.....if the type 3 cylinder were to be used.......is just move to a mechanical brake light switch mounted on the pedal cluster and operating off the pedal.....just like every modern car has.
This was an easy thought to come to...since even in the early 2000s.....quality hydraulic switches were getting hard to come by. With the miles I was putting on my car......about 60,000 per year.....I was having about one brake light switch failure per year.
Each one of these potential under dash solutions....can work......but each has....or adds complications of its own for installation.
The beetle cylinder I used.....pressure differences and needed to be modified internally and mounted with one ear. To mount it with both ears.....which is preferred.....means moving it off centerline and modifying the top of the pedal to shift the pushrod to the right.
Ok.....so lets say we decide to make that modification to move the pushrod to the right.
This opens up the ability to do as you already noted....and is the same place my thought process went back in 2000.....to make the mounting plate a boot on part.... in the same pattern and using the same bolts.....as the original master cylinder.
This now allows the use of the type 3 cylinder with the original switches. They will be a little tight in fit.....slightly hard to reach if you need to replace one without pulling the whole cylinder out.....but definately doable.
In fact.....that last solution will allow using a wide range of master cylinders in our cars. Whether they have the right pressure or not.....lets put that aside for the moment.
One of the problems we need to also think about.....is .....that with any of these modifications......whether we keep the MC under the dash by moving to type 3 or type 1 or even type 2 MC's.......are these MCs going to keep being available and keep being available in worthwhile quality?
I mean its not like we are 20 years old ....driving these cars daily....and planning to keep these cars another 40 years and needing possibly a new MC every 5 years or so .......but......I already see issues with getting QUALITY MC's for other VW cars.
When you dig around on all the forums......there has been increasing bitching about MC quality and availability over the last 10 years.....with rising costs for the MCs that are thought to be quality.
The biggest suppliers of MCs for type 1 and 3..... are places like CIp1.....selling largely Dansk and China made......both of which have issues......and FLAPS.....and Rockauto.
And....what I have been seeing from FLAPS...is also what I have been seeing at Rockauto. Its just easier to see at Rockauto. Example......
Last week I had an hour to kill so I went through the entire Rockauto Vw list from about 1967 to about 1988.....looking only for models that ranged from types 1, 2, 3, 4, vanagon, thing, dasher, rabbit, jetta, golf......with 19mm master cylinders with dual circuits.....that have rebuild kits available.
The point being that if I want to restore original type 4 MCs.....I will need cheap seals and flap valves to buy.
This should have brought an absolute BONANZA of seal kit part numbers....right?.......
Surprisingly.....no. just three kit part numbers. One is a Raybestos kit number that is listed for virtually all dual circuit MCs for types 1, 3 , thing and early Superbeetle......and two EIS kits one for VW thing and one for the other types I just listed......both on manufacturers closeout and look like they are being discontinued.
But.....there should have been lots more in early rabbit in Jetta.....becaue back in the late 90s and early 2000s.....I was buying German 19mm rabbit cylinders for $23....throwing away the cylinders and pistons and using the seals and valves to rebuild my type 4 cylinders.
But....Rockauto no longer lists most of the watercooled master cylinders as 19mm. They are all 7/8" or 13/16" now......they have been remanufactured.....bored oversize....  ....and will no longer have parts that fit ours.....nor will they have repair kits available to fit themselves moving forward.
So......like I noted.....its not like we need to have an endless supply of master cylinders for type 4. The problem is as its always been......availability when you need one......is critical. With master cylinders......you may not need a new one but every 8 years. Or....you can easily have a new MC.....and need one in 3 months due to some issue.
Not having a MC.....can keep the car from driving at all.
So.....this whole train of thought....is what brought me around to the thought of just restorijg the stock cylinders to a more permanent level......either stainless sleeves or plated bores. Since the pistons do not wear out.....if we can always get 19mm seals and flap valves.....these cylinders we already have can last forever.
Ray |
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