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AA big bore 36 kit
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Mr. Okrasa Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:34 am    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

Braukuche wrote:
Update. After copious measuring, the stroke on my Crank with 36hp rod journals is 74, so based on the advice here I will not use it unless there are sturdier rods available than the stock ones. He is looking to see if he has a A or B crank around that we could use with the AA big bore pistons and cylinders using B rods. Does that sound like a good idea or would I get better longevity and reliability using a 69.5 stroker crank?

Braukuche. I guess I should ask first to see what size engine you are trying to build and what type ie: single carb, dual carbs with Denzel-Okrasa, Porsche 356 or ??? heads. I've experimented back in the earlier 1970's trying to bore/stroke a 36hp engine using components that were already available. No sense in trying to re-invent the wheel. I realized that a 36hp Okrasa 69.5mm stroke crankshaft with stock rods was a good/reliable way to increase eng. size. Another option was to install a 356 A/B crankshaft with matching rods since they used the same sized main bearings. Now that you have a "good" bottom end, what about the top end? I've bored 912 "biral" Porsche cylinders to 83.5mm, relocated the head stud pattern and installed O/S 40hp pistons w/20mm pins. Coupled these to an Okrasa 69.5mm crankshaft gave you a total displacement of 1522cc. If I remember correctly, the cylinder wall thickness was slightly "thicker" than that of a 77mm/36hp cylinder. Using a Porsche A/B 74mm stroke crankshaft with matching 22mm pinned rods is also a good/strong bottom end with good pulling top end power. I've built many 36hp based engines using this bottom end with AA 356 80mm P/C's. I did NOT use the AA VW 80mm P/C's (20mm pin) since they are designed to use either a 64mm/69.5mm stroke crank and their pin height is not designed to use the 356 rods since those are 22mm. Instead, I use the 356 pistons just the way they are BUT I modify the iron cylinders. I trim/remove the top fin in order to fit properly into the Okrasa/Denzel head.

Its interesting that I have built several engines for people that went out and purchased a "stroked 74mm" 36hp crankshaft with VW rod journals only to find out that they were stuck trying to figure out how to put it all together and more importantly, make it work AND live! Of course I've never built this nor the crank grinder didn't have a clue as to what components to use to make it all work together but they were sure willing to sell you a crank Sad Needless to say, these crankshafts are now sitting on their shelf all purdy and shiney....makes a good conversation piece on why it wouldn't work.

As I mentioned before, no sense in trying to re-invent the wheel! Porsche already did the hard and expensive R&D work so using existing 356 components has been a good starting point for my "performance" 1500cc 36hp based engine builds. Of course you can buy "billet" crankshafts or I/H beam rods but seriously, is your street driven engine going to produce that much power that custom one-off parts are going to be needed? You've heard the saying, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" If you have gobs of money and don't really care how much money is spent on parts or R&D then you're the exception.

Lemme know what you are wanting to build.........

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1950 Split Window 356 Coupe / Black / #500X
1950 Split Window 356 Coupe / Adria Blue Metallic
1951 Split Window 356 Coupe / Radium Green Metallic
1952 Split Window 356 Cabriolet / Azure Blue
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint Wink
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Braukuche Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

Thanks Joe for the feedback, it's very useful.
I have a complete Okrasa top end kit, heads, linkage, carbs, etc, so I want to use those.
The engine came with this A or B crank with VW rod journals, but that looks to be it do the picture.
I am going to use this engine in a '59 SO22 Westy, which I use for camping and using on long hauls camping trips. It has a stock small but trans (post split case). So, I want an engine that can power me along at 62-65 mph all day long. That was why I was considering stroker, but from what's you are saying it sounds like I would be best off using a 69.5 crank in the interest I find simplicity.
As for pistons and cylinders, again it makes sense that I should use the AA VW big bore kit. I really don't want to take on the hassle and costs of modifying the studs etc. for the Porsche kit.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that with this set up I would have to have the case and heads cut for the oversized cylinders and locate proper spacers for the cylinders but the rest is bolt in.
I imagine this would give me a displacement around 1400ccs?
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Erik G
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

thats a lot to ask of a bus with a small nut trans. brand new they topped at 56mph. Personally, I'd build the big 36'er but switch to a big nut trans
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Braukuche Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

Erik G wrote:
thats a lot to ask of a bus with a small nut trans. brand new they topped at 56mph. Personally, I'd build the big 36'er but switch to a big nut trans


Right now the bus has a 1600 SP and will do that all day long.
My '58 bus has a 36hp 69.5 stroked engine with stock heads and pistons and cylinders with dual Solex 28 carbs a day it will do 60 easily with a Split case trans.
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1958 PG/SG Standard
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
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1963 356 B coupe in pieces
1965 standard sunroof bus
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

real sustained 65mph all day? what RPM? that's impressive
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

Quote:
It has a stock small but trans (post split case)

Erik G wrote:
thats a lot to ask of a bus with a small nut trans. brand new they topped at 56mph. Personally, I'd build the big 36'er but switch to a big nut trans

Looking at the owner's manuals, I read it as the split-case transmission being 56mph and the small nut being 59mph. I wonder if that is due to the 4th gear change? .89 then .82

Data from:
May 1959
vs.
Jan. 1961

Another opinion: I don't know the RPMs but 60 is about where my split-case Bus starts getting super loud. I only have a stock 36er though. 50-55 is much nicer.
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Braukuche Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

Erik G wrote:
real sustained 65mph all day? what RPM? that's impressive


That's with a bone stock 1600 and yeah, it's loud and sounds better at 60-62.
I dont want to get into gear box changes. I just want the vintage look and rhetoric ability to go up hill and dale at 60-62.

As for the '58, I have plenty of pedal at 55 and don't notice a big difference In sound if I take it up to 60. The extra hp with the stroker and dual carbs makes it a much more practical Bus on the insane freeways of today.
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Go Reds! Smash state!

My retirement plan:
1958 PG/SG Standard
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 crusty double cab
1960 convertible bug
1963 356 B coupe runner
1963 356 B coupe in pieces
1965 standard sunroof bus
1967 21 window rust bucket
1967 912
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Mr. Okrasa Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

Braukuche wrote:
Thanks Joe for the feedback, it's very useful.
I have a complete Okrasa top end kit, heads, linkage, carbs, etc, so I want to use those.
The engine came with this A or B crank with VW rod journals, but that looks to be it do the picture.
I am going to use this engine in a '59 SO22 Westy, which I use for camping and using on long hauls camping trips. It has a stock small but trans (post split case). So, I want an engine that can power me along at 62-65 mph all day long. That was why I was considering stroker, but from what's you are saying it sounds like I would be best off using a 69.5 crank in the interest I find simplicity.
As for pistons and cylinders, again it makes sense that I should use the AA VW big bore kit. I really don't want to take on the hassle and costs of modifying the studs etc. for the Porsche kit.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that with this set up I would have to have the case and heads cut for the oversized cylinders and locate proper spacers for the cylinders but the rest is bolt in.
I imagine this would give me a displacement around 1400ccs?

If you want to keep it simple, I would go with the stroker 69.5mm crankshaft (1398cc), mild cam that would work best with dual carbs and AA VW 80mm P/C's. This should give you plenty of torque to get the bus rollin' from a stop and the longer stroke for better top end. I have built dozens of dual carb'd engines for bus applications with great results! Mr. Okrasa Cool
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1950 Split Window 356 Coupe / Black / #500X
1950 Split Window 356 Coupe / Adria Blue Metallic
1951 Split Window 356 Coupe / Radium Green Metallic
1952 Split Window 356 Cabriolet / Azure Blue
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint Wink
See this link: https://vimeo.com/139432553

VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com
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Braukuche Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

Mr. Okrasa wrote:
Braukuche wrote:
Thanks Joe for the feedback, it's very useful.
I have a complete Okrasa top end kit, heads, linkage, carbs, etc, so I want to use those.
The engine came with this A or B crank with VW rod journals, but that looks to be it do the picture.
I am going to use this engine in a '59 SO22 Westy, which I use for camping and using on long hauls camping trips. It has a stock small but trans (post split case). So, I want an engine that can power me along at 62-65 mph all day long. That was why I was considering stroker, but from what's you are saying it sounds like I would be best off using a 69.5 crank in the interest I find simplicity.
As for pistons and cylinders, again it makes sense that I should use the AA VW big bore kit. I really don't want to take on the hassle and costs of modifying the studs etc. for the Porsche kit.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that with this set up I would have to have the case and heads cut for the oversized cylinders and locate proper spacers for the cylinders but the rest is bolt in.
I imagine this would give me a displacement around 1400ccs?

If you want to keep it simple, I would go with the stroker 69.5mm crankshaft (1398cc), mild cam that would work best with dual carbs and AA VW 80mm P/C's. This should give you plenty of torque to get the bus rollin' from a stop and the longer stroke for better top end. I have built dozens of dual carb'd engines for bus applications with great results! Mr. Okrasa Cool



Sounds like a plan, thanks.
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Go Reds! Smash state!

My retirement plan:
1958 PG/SG Standard
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 crusty double cab
1960 convertible bug
1963 356 B coupe runner
1963 356 B coupe in pieces
1965 standard sunroof bus
1967 21 window rust bucket
1967 912
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Snort
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

Mr. Okrasa wrote:

...I have built about a dozen engines using the AA 36hp 80mm P/C's kit already...

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Have you built any of these 80mm motors with case saver inserts?
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Mr. Okrasa Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

Yes I have but only at the customers request. Cheers. Cool
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1950 Split Window 356 Coupe / Black / #500X
1950 Split Window 356 Coupe / Adria Blue Metallic
1951 Split Window 356 Coupe / Radium Green Metallic
1952 Split Window 356 Cabriolet / Azure Blue
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint Wink
See this link: https://vimeo.com/139432553

VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

So, is there enough space left on the case for the case saver threads or does the larger cylinder bore cut into them?
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Mr. Okrasa Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

Snort wrote:
So, is there enough space left on the case for the case saver threads or does the larger cylinder bore cut into them?

Yes. Boring the block for over sized cylinders will cut into the case savers. Depending on what type you use, it will cut more/less into them. Cheers. Cool
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1950 Split Window 356 Coupe / Black / #500X
1950 Split Window 356 Coupe / Adria Blue Metallic
1951 Split Window 356 Coupe / Radium Green Metallic
1952 Split Window 356 Cabriolet / Azure Blue
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint Wink
See this link: https://vimeo.com/139432553

VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

Braukuche, if you wanna go that fast,60-62 sustained. You will need the horsepower upgrade, but you will also need final drive ratio change.

My suggestion: if you wanna stay stock tires and split case and small nut; add a set of '63 only one-ton reduction boxes. They are big nut ratios with a small nut. Or just go big nut. Either of those boxes will swap right onto your transaxle and give an instant 10% reduction in highway rpms
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

Joe built a long block for me earlier this year using AA 80mm pistons (69.5mm x 80mm). I believe the pictures in his post are from my build. It's finally assembled and ready. Hoping to get it installed in a month or so, I will give some feedback once it's tuned and rolling....

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

How's your thermostat going to work?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

Have you given any thought to getting a set of Okrasa/DRLA/IDF manifolds?

Your engine would run awesome with a set of 36DRLAs or 36IDFs

Empi just released their remake of the Dellorto DRLA's as well

My 1200cc runs great with dual 36IDFs


[quote="Big_E_Deluxe"]Joe built a long block for me earlier this year using AA 80mm pistons (69.5mm x 80mm). I believe the pictures in his post are from my build. It's finally assembled and ready. Hoping to get it installed in a month or so, I will give some feedback once it's tuned and rolling....
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

jason wrote:
How's your thermostat going to work?


Lower cylinder tins are out for powder coating.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

txoval wrote:
Have you given any thought to getting a set of Okrasa/DRLA/IDF manifolds?

Your engine would run awesome with a set of 36DRLAs or 36IDFs

Empi just released their remake of the Dellorto DRLA's as well

My 1200cc runs great with dual 36IDFs


Maybe something I'll look at in the future....I've already broken my budget a few times already!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: AA big bore 36 kit Reply with quote

jason wrote:
How's your thermostat going to work?

In my 43+ years of building these engines, I installed 2 thermostats on original engines and that was at the customers requests.
In the U.S.A., how many people are going to drive their 36er in knee deep snow or where the climate is so cold that they would
prefer driving their air cooled VW rather than more modern vehicle with better cabin heating? Besides, I have heard horror
stories where their thermostat failed and did not open, engine ran hot and fried itself to death!
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1950 Split Window 356 Coupe / Black / #500X
1950 Split Window 356 Coupe / Adria Blue Metallic
1951 Split Window 356 Coupe / Radium Green Metallic
1952 Split Window 356 Cabriolet / Azure Blue
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint Wink
See this link: https://vimeo.com/139432553

VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com
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