| Author |
Message |
Telephunken
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2004
Posts: 274
Location: Northern California
|
 Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
 |
|
| Jason is correct, we sourced these nice original pieces to use in conjunction with our new replacement panels. we are just simply having them stripped to bare metal so that he can then modify what he needs to. These particular inner fender well panels will go through a modifications to be correct for a 47 car. Im excited to see Jason work his magic and see how these come out! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
maskinmester
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2016
Posts: 51
Location: Denmark
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
| TheResurrectionProject wrote: |
We are onto another rotation this week but I did snap a few photos of the demo prep we did in order to get the panel out to the blaster in time. They will take longer then they did with the body because we are powder priming these unlike we did with the 57 body because the powder primer is up to 1mm thick witch will create unwanted clearances while doing the Jig around it. The next official rotation for the 47 is May 8th. The parts will all wrapped up and ready to go just before that time.
|
Did I read correct that you will apply a 1mm thick layer of primer?
Wont this make I troublesome to spot weld the panels in place as well as make all details/pressings etc less visible and sharp.
Just curious as from my experience thick layers of paint or filler will always give a wrong look - particular to all undercarriage and wheel wells which has probably never been filled and painted to mirror shine finish.
/René
_________________
1954 Beetle - running - Went to HO 17
1961 Beetle in the workshop
1960 Beetle waiting for repair
1956 Unimog 411
30 old farm tractors and stationary engines
1999 Golf - daily driver |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WrennMetallWerks
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2007
Posts: 2657
Location: Rescue ca
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
| maskinmester wrote: |
| TheResurrectionProject wrote: |
We are onto another rotation this week but I did snap a few photos of the demo prep we did in order to get the panel out to the blaster in time. They will take longer then they did with the body because we are powder priming these unlike we did with the 57 body because the powder primer is up to 1mm thick witch will create unwanted clearances while doing the Jig around it. The next official rotation for the 47 is May 8th. The parts will all wrapped up and ready to go just before that time.
|
Did I read correct that you will apply a 1mm thick layer of primer?
Wont this make I troublesome to spot weld the panels in place as well as make all details/pressings etc less visible and sharp.
Just curious as from my experience thick layers of paint or filler will always give a wrong look - particular to all undercarriage and wheel wells which has probably never been filled and painted to mirror shine finish.
/René |
Hello Rene. And thanks you for asking. I would be happy to share my experiences as well, are you a painter/body guy by trade ?
_________________
⚒ Believe In The Power Of Positive Thinking ⚒
Purpose Over Pleasure 🕊
“Hard Werk ⚒ God First “
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=0-PSeV52tZ4&si=wpcuRnQyvIFo2nCJ
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=PaCorLXzC5w&si=cbzT8fjlzVlIWfSV
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=_aoE5aYSutY&si=mkZKPxd_41QA1kfs
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzUyyVexAE&feature=share
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=UI8yUrIWS7E&feature=share |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WrennMetallWerks
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2007
Posts: 2657
Location: Rescue ca
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
| maskinmester wrote: |
| TheResurrectionProject wrote: |
We are onto another rotation this week but I did snap a few photos of the demo prep we did in order to get the panel out to the blaster in time. They will take longer then they did with the body because we are powder priming these unlike we did with the 57 body because the powder primer is up to 1mm thick witch will create unwanted clearances while doing the Jig around it. The next official rotation for the 47 is May 8th. The parts will all wrapped up and ready to go just before that time.
|
Did I read correct that you will apply a 1mm thick layer of primer?
Wont this make I troublesome to spot weld the panels in place as well as make all details/pressings etc less visible and sharp.
Just curious as from my experience thick layers of paint or filler will always give a wrong look - particular to all undercarriage and wheel wells which has probably never been filled and painted to mirror shine finish.
/René |
Powder primer can* be as thick as 1 mm ( *not saying it will be) this is why we will not be doing the 57 body in primer for tolerance reasons. As for the donor panels they will receive a healthy amount of primer designed to seal off and suffocate any foreign matter trying to get back in or back out of the metal . In this part of the world it is not uncommon for painters to apply multiple layers of primer. Using epoxy primers with a very high build to them, then sanding those layers down one by one using guide coat and the using the primer like a filler . If the metal work is nice the process goes that much faster. These panels will have been down to bare metal and powder primed with a industry standard amount applied. From what I have seen in past years working with dozens and dozens of panels they turn out awesome with out loosing their contour and definition integrity do to over filling. For fun we will use a caliper and mic the difference when they return. 
_________________
⚒ Believe In The Power Of Positive Thinking ⚒
Purpose Over Pleasure 🕊
“Hard Werk ⚒ God First “
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=0-PSeV52tZ4&si=wpcuRnQyvIFo2nCJ
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=PaCorLXzC5w&si=cbzT8fjlzVlIWfSV
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=_aoE5aYSutY&si=mkZKPxd_41QA1kfs
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzUyyVexAE&feature=share
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=UI8yUrIWS7E&feature=share |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nlorntson
Crazy VW Lady
Joined: March 13, 2004
Posts: 3783
Location: Twin Cities, MN
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
I'm curious about the resurrection of the 47. My understanding of the construction of cars around this era was that much of the work was done without the use of panels that were accurately or consistently stamped.
Most of the cars were built mostly by hand and there was quite a bit of subtle modification completed by hand to mate up panels and openings.
I'm wondering if your plan is to use the oval window body to position a jig such that the 47 can then be reconstructed to a similar standard?
I'm especially interested because we saw some evidence of this hand work in our 49. Although it was constructed well after the British turned the factory back over to the Germans, and the production quality had greatly improved, we noticed a strange variance in the stamping of the inner fenders near the decklid opening.
Had we not had pictures of the rear of the car from the 50's showing the same variance we could have assumed there was some sort of problem introduced after production.
I had hoped to show this to you at KP but we missed each other.
Anyways, I'm enjoying your builds. Keep up the great work! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Telephunken
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2004
Posts: 274
Location: Northern California
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
| Actually, based on old film footage and photos that I have seen from around this era (1947-1948), I think the stamping technology for making the panels was actually very good and "fine tuned" at this point. there might of been some very small variances but I think most of the panels were very consistent. You have to remember that Volkswagen had been making cars for a few years at this point. If you want to include all the wartime machines such as kubel and schwimmers aling with beetles, they probably had produced panels for 100,000 cars or more by 1945. I don't know if I would say that the panels that we are buying today that are the quality reproductions that are available, are as good as or better or worse than what was used originally. I do know that they are slightly thicker as it is well known that pre-1949 cars is a slightly thinner gauge of steel. Some of the things we have found as well of things we have seen on other cars of this era, are crude repairs and things like that. it is well known that in 46 and 47 there was a large number of vehicles that were damaged or wrecked then returned back to be refurbished at the factory. Most of these cars were just "tools" and we're not meant for the general population or to be sold at dealerships during this time. I don't know how well this refurbishment was done, or the same level of craftsmanship was used in the refurbishment process as it was in the original construction of the car in the first place. I can say that in 1949, with about 47,000 vehicles produced, I doubt there was a large inconsistency in the panels being pressed by the machinery in the factory. there could've been inconsistencies in the labor or the welding of these panels together because obviously it was done by hand and there's always a human error factor, but with a jig, and the panels being relatively identical, I doubt there was huge fluctuations. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WrennMetallWerks
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2007
Posts: 2657
Location: Rescue ca
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
| nlorntson wrote: |
I'm curious about the resurrection of the 47. My understanding of the construction of cars around this era was that much of the work was done without the use of panels that were accurately or consistently stamped.
Most of the cars were built mostly by hand and there was quite a bit of subtle modification completed by hand to mate up panels and openings.
I'm wondering if your plan is to use the oval window body to position a jig such that the 47 can then be reconstructed to a similar standard?
I'm especially interested because we saw some evidence of this hand work in our 49. Although it was constructed well after the British turned the factory back over to the Germans, and the production quality had greatly improved, we noticed a strange variance in the stamping of the inner fenders near the decklid opening.
Had we not had pictures of the rear of the car from the 50's showing the same variance we could have assumed there was some sort of problem introduced after production.
I had hoped to show this to you at KP but we missed each other.
Anyways, I'm enjoying your builds. Keep up the great work! |
\
This is a very good and often misunderstood assumption in my humble opinion.
There is one video that comes to mind on You Tube that interviews a man on the build up of the Factory after the war. He goes on to say that once they began to rebuild the factory that, "We still had the large presses and press tools" from the KDF era despite almost 3/4 of the factory was destroyed.
In my humble opinion every beetle ever made was made with impeccable accuracy, integrity and repeatability. The large presses and dies made in Germany and Austria in those times where nothing less then guinness. The bodies are uniformly constructed with 2 mm. When a Beetle is out of wack or has questionable repairs done it is with out doubt a "Post Production" problem. From my experience with the Volkswagen body construction, I feel confident to say the 46 and 47 was constructed in a Jig with as much potential for accuracy as the 57 was.
I cant say enough about my amazement of what was accomplished in the design and execution of the Bodies for the KDF and the VW Beetle. So , with that said , I stand firm in saying they were All made with quality and integrity even in those troubled times and I plan to honor and continue that Legacy of Design and Execution. 
TRP
_________________
⚒ Believe In The Power Of Positive Thinking ⚒
Purpose Over Pleasure 🕊
“Hard Werk ⚒ God First “
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=0-PSeV52tZ4&si=wpcuRnQyvIFo2nCJ
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=PaCorLXzC5w&si=cbzT8fjlzVlIWfSV
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=_aoE5aYSutY&si=mkZKPxd_41QA1kfs
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzUyyVexAE&feature=share
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=UI8yUrIWS7E&feature=share
Last edited by WrennMetallWerks on Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WrennMetallWerks
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2007
Posts: 2657
Location: Rescue ca
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
| Telephunken wrote: |
| Actually, based on old film footage and photos that I have seen from around this era (1947-1948), I think the stamping technology for making the panels was actually very good and "fine tuned" at this point. there might of been some very small variances but I think most of the panels were very consistent. You have to remember that Volkswagen had been making cars for a few years at this point. If you want to include all the wartime machines such as kubel and schwimmers aling with beetles, they probably had produced panels for 100,000 cars or more by 1945. I don't know if I would say that the panels that we are buying today that are the quality reproductions that are available, are as good as or better or worse than what was used originally. I do know that they are slightly thicker as it is well known that pre-1949 cars is a slightly thinner gauge of steel. Some of the things we have found as well of things we have seen on other cars of this era, are crude repairs and things like that. it is well known that in 46 and 47 there was a large number of vehicles that were damaged or wrecked then returned back to be refurbished at the factory. Most of these cars were just "tools" and we're not meant for the general population or to be sold at dealerships during this time. I don't know how well this refurbishment was done, or the same level of craftsmanship was used in the refurbishment process as it was in the original construction of the car in the first place. I can say that in 1949, with about 47,000 vehicles produced, I doubt there was a large inconsistency in the panels being pressed by the machinery in the factory. there could've been inconsistencies in the labor or the welding of these panels together because obviously it was done by hand and there's always a human error factor, but with a jig, and the panels being relatively identical, I doubt there was huge fluctuations. |
I conquer Doctor... 
_________________
⚒ Believe In The Power Of Positive Thinking ⚒
Purpose Over Pleasure 🕊
“Hard Werk ⚒ God First “
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=0-PSeV52tZ4&si=wpcuRnQyvIFo2nCJ
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=PaCorLXzC5w&si=cbzT8fjlzVlIWfSV
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=_aoE5aYSutY&si=mkZKPxd_41QA1kfs
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzUyyVexAE&feature=share
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=UI8yUrIWS7E&feature=share |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WrennMetallWerks
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2007
Posts: 2657
Location: Rescue ca
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WrennMetallWerks
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2007
Posts: 2657
Location: Rescue ca
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WrennMetallWerks
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2007
Posts: 2657
Location: Rescue ca
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wcfvw69 
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:26 am Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
| TheResurrectionProject wrote: |
More panels showing up.
One more shipment and we will have everything.
|
Good, cuz this thread needs some action and less talking!!! 
I want to see some sparks flying, damn it!
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4095
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
The stamping dies were plenty refined by the time the first set of productions dies were finished.
These are test stampings from the first set of productions dies.
I believe these are the first run of panels being stamped for the earliest production KDFs or perhaps VW39's.
I have heard and read that most of the machine tools and dies were moved to the cellars and to other off site locations during the war because they knew that the factory would be a target.
In Don Post's book Small Wonder Ivan Hurst tells a story about having to make the roofs out of three pieces of metal early on because they couldn't get sheet metal big enough to stamp the roof in one piece. They had gotten hold of a seam welder and had to scramble to hide it from some of the British higher ups that dropped in for an inspection.
I too believe that most of the weirdness that we find on early cars is due to half assed repairs done by owners and mechanics. My '51 was only on the road for 9 years and had a lot of unspeakable "repairs" and modifications done to it so cars that are as old as an early split and have been on the road for a long time are going to have a lot of opportunities for funky repairs.
_________________
Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Telephunken
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2004
Posts: 274
Location: Northern California
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
| Very cool pics and info Chris! I very much agree with you on the fact that most of the poor craftsmanship found in any of these old cars was probably done during repairs or things later on in their lives, and not from the factory. These cars were tools and used as such. I think most if the repairs done until recent times were just that, "repairs", not like a "restoration" of any sort. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kdf38
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 896
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
| "Small Wonder" was written by Walter Henry Nelson. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rod_vw
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Shropshire, UK
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:15 am Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
| Telephunken wrote: |
| Very cool pics and info Chris! I very much agree with you on the fact that most of the poor craftsmanship found in any of these old cars was probably done during repairs or things later on in their lives, and not from the factory. These cars were tools and used as such. I think most if the repairs done until recent times were just that, "repairs", not like a "restoration" of any sort. |
Discovered when our '46 was being restored...
When The inner rear panels were removed to gain access to repair other parts it was discovered that the folded seam joining them to the 'B' posts were not welded. On the surface it looked as though they had been spot welded through the fold but the welder obviously was not set-up correctly and had not been hot enough to create a weld! This was the same on both sides of the car and all spot welds, the inner panels simply unhooked from the fold!
Maybe this is the reason that we see so many very early cars with after production welding in the rear as these missing welds would have reduced the rigidity of that part of the car considerably probably causing cracking of other welds further back. No one would have thought to look at the 'B' post welding as it appeared OK from simple inspection.
_________________
Rod,
Please visit http://www.historicvws.org.uk
https://www.facebook.com/historicvwclub/
1946 Beetle (Back on the road after over 50 years! Last major outing - Hessisch Oldendorf 2022)
2016 T6 Selfbuild Camper and a LWB MAN TGE in build. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rich's 50
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2004
Posts: 10781
Location: San Diego, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
Such great work so far dude..
Like I said it before your true craftsmanship is beyond what other's can do.
Keep up the great work bro 😎👏👏👏 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WrennMetallWerks
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2007
Posts: 2657
Location: Rescue ca
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WrennMetallWerks
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2007
Posts: 2657
Location: Rescue ca
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WrennMetallWerks
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2007
Posts: 2657
Location: Rescue ca
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
|
|
| rod_vw wrote: |
| Telephunken wrote: |
| Very cool pics and info Chris! I very much agree with you on the fact that most of the poor craftsmanship found in any of these old cars was probably done during repairs or things later on in their lives, and not from the factory. These cars were tools and used as such. I think most if the repairs done until recent times were just that, "repairs", not like a "restoration" of any sort. |
Discovered when our '46 was being restored...
When The inner rear panels were removed to gain access to repair other parts it was discovered that the folded seam joining them to the 'B' posts were not welded. On the surface it looked as though they had been spot welded through the fold but the welder obviously was not set-up correctly and had not been hot enough to create a weld! This was the same on both sides of the car and all spot welds, the inner panels simply unhooked from the fold!
Maybe this is the reason that we see so many very early cars with after production welding in the rear as these missing welds would have reduced the rigidity of that part of the car considerably probably causing cracking of other welds further back. No one would have thought to look at the 'B' post welding as it appeared OK from simple inspection. |
Did you take any photos rod , I would love to see them... I have seen lots of factory welds separated over time or never welded at the factory on cars pre 55. From my experience the weld quality increased post 55. ( just my personal experience) thank you for sharing.
_________________
⚒ Believe In The Power Of Positive Thinking ⚒
Purpose Over Pleasure 🕊
“Hard Werk ⚒ God First “
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=0-PSeV52tZ4&si=wpcuRnQyvIFo2nCJ
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=PaCorLXzC5w&si=cbzT8fjlzVlIWfSV
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=_aoE5aYSutY&si=mkZKPxd_41QA1kfs
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzUyyVexAE&feature=share
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=UI8yUrIWS7E&feature=share |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
