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Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long)
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EDragnDean
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

deafen wrote:
Argh ... or maybe not. Turns out I WAS measuring #1 last night, and #4 in the parking lot today. The #1 wire isn't pointed at the crank pulley, it's pointed forward and right (toward #1 cylinder, I suppose). This afternoon I was measuring the #4 wire against the BDC marking on the pulley. I have GOT to pay better attention.

Anyway, I set it to 26* mechanical, and changed the oil to 10W30. We'll see how tomorrow goes.


Pertronix SVDA number one will typically point toward one instead of the split in the case. I.e. baseline is 45 degrees off from what is normal. 28-32 at full advance 3500 RPMs. If truly running at 20-26 something is off. Fix full advance then work on idle by adjusting the carb. Maybe a defective dizzy?
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 11:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

Seems like your timing is off still from your description. Is there someone nearby who can show you the ropes (maybe something on youtube).

You time it off the #1 cylinder on the distributor so whichever wire runs from the distributor to #1. It is not the same place on the cap for all distributors (if that statement even makes sense to you).

Prop the decklid with a tennis ball too, but still work out your timing issue and then carb adjustment first.
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deafen
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:16 am    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

EDragnDean wrote:
Pertronix SVDA number one will typically point toward one instead of the split in the case. I.e. baseline is 45 degrees off from what is normal. 28-32 at full advance 3500 RPMs. If truly running at 20-26 something is off. Fix full advance then work on idle by adjusting the carb. Maybe a defective dizzy?


Had it at 30 yesterday and it ran hot enough to ping at 60 mph. That's why I'm pulling back to 26 for today's test.

Since the top end was fine (hadn't had a ping in years) before i retimed it the other day, I'm starting to narrow down the hot oil diagnosis to the heavy oil. Today's test will tell me if that's right or not. As for the ping, I'm starting to think maybe the pulley is inaccurate. I'll keep backing off the timing until it doesn't ping, and this weekend I'll be able to get the CHT gauge installed so that I can make sure I'm not cooking the heads.
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deafen
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:25 am    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

74 Thing wrote:
Seems like your timing is off still from your description. Is there someone nearby who can show you the ropes (maybe something on youtube).


I'm pretty familiar with the whole process - have had multiple other vehicles that needed timing adjustments, and have timed this one myself several times. There's just something that isn't adding up; for one, I know the distributor's not making the correct amount of mechanical advance (should be 22-ish, and it's making 18 or so). For two, it's pinging at 30* full advance.

74 Thing wrote:
You time it off the #1 cylinder on the distributor so whichever wire runs from the distributor to #1. It is not the same place on the cap for all distributors (if that statement even makes sense to you).


It totally does, because that's the situation here - this is rotated one position CCW from where I'm familiar with VW distributors. I grabbed the #4 wire yesterday because I was in a hurry and not paying enough attention ... and trying to avoid my boss seeing me. Smile

74 Thing wrote:
Prop the decklid with a tennis ball too, but still work out your timing issue and then carb adjustment first.


That's next if the lighter oil doesn't fix the hot oil in today's test.

Thanks for all the advice!
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deafen
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

Today's report: Lighter oil and timing at 26* did not help the hot oil issue. Still flickered after 13-14 minutes at 60 mph, top down. On the upside, it wasn't pinging like yesterday, so ... yay? Depending on when I get out of the office, I may be able to beat the traffic and get another test run on the freeway home. I'll see if I can find a tennis ball anywhere nearby.

I got nervous when the light started flickering, in case it was a pressure problem instead of a temperature problem. Now considering adding oil temp and pressure gauges, so I can really see what's going on. If I do, I plan to put the temp sender in the rear oil relief (VDO 323-064). For the pressure sender, should i use a tee to run it together with the stock pressure switch, or can I rely on the pressure gauge to indicate full oil pressure loss / catastrophic failure?

If nothing else, when all is said and done, I'll have the best instrumented Thing in Raleigh (CHT, oil temp, oil pressure, tach, volts), even if they don't all match ...
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

Don't remember what you have already tried, but you could buy a replacement oil pressure switch.

You can read the oil temperature fairly accurately by shooting the bottom of the engine with an IR gun. Shoot the bottom of the block behind the oil strainer, the oil strainer itself may be much cooler than the oil temp.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

Don't remember what you have already tried, but you could buy a replacement oil pressure switch.

You can read the oil temperature fairly accurately by shooting the bottom of the engine with an IR gun. Shoot the bottom of the block behind the oil strainer, the oil strainer itself may be much cooler than the oil temp.
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deafen
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Don't remember what you have already tried, but you could buy a replacement oil pressure switch.


I think the switch is okay. The flickering is from the Gene Berg dipstick, warning that the oil is at 215-220*. Although with the lighter oil today, I did get concerned that it might be the oil pressure (although that would be pretty crazy, to have no oil pressure at 60 mph just from going down in oil weight).

If I get a pressure gauge, do you think I should use a tee and also run the stock pressure switch along with the pressure sender?
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

I am a real strong believer in having a working oil pressure warning light.
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

Did you put that temp sender in boiling water and verify the accuracy of it?

They make multi meters with wire based temp senders (as well as candy thermometers) that you can put down the oil tube and verify that your oil is actually hot.

Something is still screwy with your timing or distributor.
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deafen
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

74 Thing wrote:
Did you put that temp sender in boiling water and verify the accuracy of it?


Yup. Did that when I bought it, and did it again tonight to make sure it hasn't drifted. This is at full boil (211* at my altitude), so full contact is probably 220-225*.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


74 Thing wrote:
Something is still screwy with your timing or distributor.


Yeah, it's either the distributor or the pulley. I've got a piston stop on order so I can check the pulley's accuracy. If it's accurate, then I'll probably just bite the bullet and get a new Pertronix SVDA to be sure it's all sorted. After all, I'm spending more than that on gauges ... Smile
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deafen
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

It's raining today, and it's going to rain all the way through Thursday, then I'm on a family trip through the holiday weekend, so this is going on hold for a little bit. Can't really run in the rain because the rebuilt wiper motor I put in six or seven years ago has failed again, and Rain-X only does so much.

But stay tuned - this isn't over yet. Still planning on checking the TDC mark, and maybe even wiring up the CHT gauge during the downtime.
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deafen
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

mondshine wrote:

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I just scored a NOS RPM/CHT unit like yours for $88 on the 'Bay. I think I lucked out because It's branded Westberg, so people searching for Westach wouldn't have seen it. And it uses the same J-type thermocouple that I will have already installed for the DD.

I may run them both for a little while with a DPDT so I can compare the two readings. The Westach is supposed to have a fixed 75* compensation., so we'll see how they differ.
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911pickup
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

Great score!
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deafen
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

Ugh. Piston stop test confirms that the pulley is indeed inaccurate ... but only by 2*. The pulley's TDC mark is later than true TDC, so now that I've timed it to an indicated 26* total mech. advance, it's really 28*, which should be fine.

So now I believe I've definitively ruled out timing as a cause ... have I?

When I pulled the #1 spark plug to install the stop, it wasn't completely tight, so the body (outside the head) had some gunk on it. It wasn't loose per se, but it wasn't 100% sealed. I cleaned up the threads and made sure to torque to 25 lbft. Can't imagine that this would have anything to do with the overheating, tho.

So to recap where we're at ... in addition to the list in my first post, I have now:

    Changed jetting to one size larger (130 main, 60 idle ... might be too rich now)
    Changed the oil from 20W50 to 10W30, hoping to allow oil through the cooler.
    Verified timing and set to 28* total mech. advance.
    Checked the Berg dipstick to make sure it's calibrated properly.

I've got a tennis ball on it now, but haven't had a chance to do a freeway run with it.

I'm running out of options here and getting pretty frustrated. If the tennis ball doesn't work, what's left? Take it to the big-name local VW shop (Hicks) and make it their problem? That feels like failure.
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helowrench
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

Honestly, your next steps IMO involve removing the engine.
then removing the tin, then checking to make sure all of your cooling passages are fully open, and flowing air, and making sure your oil cooler is not blocked or sludged up.



Thinking outside of the box.........
It is possible that the relief piston is stuck in bypass mode. It happens kinda rarely. Might be worthwhile to look up how to troubleshoot and eliminate that.

Also, It is possible that your thermostat has given up the ghost, and/or linkage is jammed/disconnected, and holding the flaps in the closed position.
Again something you can check at home, but would require a bit of research.

Rob
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helowrench
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

Another thing, mirror and flashlight to ensure that no paper/plastic has been sucked into the fan, and is impeding airflow.

Rob
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

helowrench wrote:
Another thing, mirror and flashlight to ensure that no paper/plastic has been sucked into the fan, and is impeding airflow.

Rob


That was going to be my suggestion as well.

He should also verify that the flaps are actually in the "hot" position if he has not done so. If the spring fails, or if something jams then the flaps may not be fully opening.
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deafen
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
He should also verify that the flaps are actually in the "hot" position if he has not done so. If the spring fails, or if something jams then the flaps may not be fully opening.


I don't have flaps. Previous owner removed the whole system (flaps, rod, thermostat, bracket, etc.) It's been on my list of "stuff to deal with eventually", but since it requires dropping the engine, it's been a low priority.
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Need more ideas to solve hot running condition (long) Reply with quote

An important function of the flaps is to direct the fan's output (cooling air).
It would be worthwhile to return the cooling system to its original state before you go much further.
The time required to remove and re-install the engine is small, when compared to the time you have already spent on this problem.
Good luck, Mondshine
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