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Another VW Engineering Blunder...
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Busstom
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:44 pm    Post subject: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

Öor a rational explanation?

A quick search didnít turn up anything, but Iím surely not the first person to notice this. Why did VW cant the shock mounting boss out of plane with the upper mounting bolt, and way out of perpendicularity to the swinging arc of the bearing housing? There's roughly an 8 - 10 degree disparity between the upper and lower bolt planes.

This flies in the face of sound engineering principles, and in my case, not only are the bushings and sleeves wallowed out on my lower shock mounts, but the bolts are slightly bent.

Does anyone know why VW designed these like this? It's very odd. Not to mention, annoying.

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air-h2o-air
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

annoying? why so? many shocks on many different vehicles do not have parallel mounting points
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

Has anyone swagged the force on the shock bolt? It might be lower than people think.

The shock is the damper, not the spring resisting the force.
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Busstom
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Has anyone swagged the force on the shock bolt? It might be lower than people think.

The shock is the damper, not the spring resisting the force.
.
That's true. But also, the valving in the shock absorber itself produces resistance in order to do it's job. So, for example, while happily motoring along a smooth stretch of freeway, the shock absorber is deviating very little from it's state of equilibrium, and the bolts see almost no force; but during that very instant that the wheel drops into a pothole at freeway speed and then pops back out (compresses), the result is a rapid acceleration against the shock absorber and, for an instant, produces a shit ton of force on the bolts, certainly in the thousands of g's.

I know, I know, it's a dynamic relationship: the greater the torsion bar twists and resistance increases, the load on the bolts drops off rapidly.

Rocking a rigid metal rule against my bent shock bolts, I'd estimate that they're tweaked about .010" or so. Sure, it's not much, but enough that one of them doesn't slide all the way into the boss anymore. I suspect it's a result of the bolts having to exist in a "wedged" state, so that once the lower bolt(s) is levered into the mounting boss, the bolt no longer benefits from uniform cushioning around the diameter of the rubber mount bushing, and the cumulative effects over time just tweak the bolts.

Just sayin'. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:13 am    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

If the shock or the bearing housing is worn out of round,that means the shock bolt was not tight at some point and allowed the shock to pound on the bolt.If all was tight there would be no movement,therefor no wear.
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:14 am    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

If the shock or the bearing housing is worn out of round,that means the shock bolt was not tight at some point and allowed the shock to pound on the bolt.If all was tight there would be no movement,therefor no wear.
I went and took a look at my shock mount bolts,the top bolt is also on an angle that looks the same as the bottom bolt,when the shock is installed at ride height it is angled in at the top which explains the bolts been on an angle.I did not measure the angles to see if they are the same,I assume they are,as you said it makes no sense to have them different.
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Last edited by lil-jinx on Fri May 19, 2017 4:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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madmike
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:22 am    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

You can find Bilstien shock with Heim ends on them, Wink
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

lil-jinx wrote:
If the shock or the bearing housing is worn out of round,that means the shock bolt was not tight at some point and allowed the shock to pound on the bolt.If all was tight there would be no movement,therefor no wear.
I went and took a look at my shock mount bolts,the top bolt is also on an angle that looks the same as the bottom bolt,when the shock is installed at ride height it is angled in at the top which explains the bolts been on an angle.I did not measure the angles to see if they are the same,I assume they are,as you said it makes no sense to have them different.


Hmmm, Iíll have to look closer (again) at my upper bolts. Iím pretty sure that theyíre parallel (or nearly) to the ground. If Iím understanding you correctly, I think youíre suggesting that your setup looks like the red shock absorber on the left (in the image below). If thatís true, then the whole situation is even more wonky than previously thought. Every type 1 and 2 VW I have/had, up to model years í68, have roughly-parallel bolt planes top and bottom, on all four shocks (especially the front ends, those are dead-nuts parallel). A little variation is understandable and acceptable, but the target goal is parallelism - top and bottom - to start with. Of course - in any application, if the whole shock is tilted, then the mounts and bolts tilt with it, right? But that's not what I'm talking about here.

Iím not trying to beat the crap out of this topic, Iím just trying to understand why at some point, VW decided that it was a good idea to angle the lower mounting bosses on the IRS bearing housings of these later Buses. Perhaps it made it easier to get tools on the bolts to change shocks while they were on the lift...maybe it sped up manufacturing somehowÖI dunno.

Mike, I hear you...I don't care so much about this Westy, but I do run Afco heim shocks on my '64 Bus.

Thanks for your responses.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

VW over-designed almost everything on these vehicles, I seriously doubt that something like that was a blunder. It's probably designed that way so that in the event of the suspension suddenly coming unloaded, the shock doesn't slip off the end of the bolt should the bushing fail since they didn't use a washer larger than the ID of the shock eyelet.
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

Since every baywindow bus is like this it begs the question. Has this effected the running or handling of any bus anytime anywhere ever? I'm betting the answer to this is a resounding no! If that is the case then I'd say this topic is about a non issue. And if that is the case, I for one refuse to fall into this trap of annul compulsiveness.

just sayin'. Confused
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

Are the two bolts in the same vertical plane? If not the lower would need that angle for the shock to meet up with the top bolt. That would be my guess.

Edit: just looked at some pictures. I think the shock is angled in a little. It would give better geometry than straight up and down.
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

If you put a gun to my head, I would guesstimate they did it to keep the
shock's frequency from working in unison with the rear torsion bars
& generating freakish harmonics when you hit nasty washboard pavement.
Only a guess, they aren't on the same plane with that bottom bolt where it is.
+ my bus handles washboard like it does not care, so....
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:36 am    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

If the bushing life exceeds the shock body life, then bushing wear isn't an issue. I'm sure that this is true if torqued correctly, with good parts.
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 5:58 am    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1644511.jpg

Yes,The bolts look like those on the left,but the shock is tilted to the left,which bring the mount eyes more in line with the bolts.
The shock angle would change as it expands and compresses,I would thing at ideal ride height that the bolts would be in proper alienment with the shocks.
Sodbuster--this may be a non-issue,but then again it may un- cover a problem with the Op's shock mounts,either way it is a few vw enthusiasts discussing vws,is that not what this forum is all about?
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

lil-jinx wrote:
<snip> ... it is a few vw enthusiasts discussing vws,is that not what this forum is all about?


^this...

Thanks again for the feedback, guys.

Edit: added pic.

This is what I'm talking about...minor issue? Yes. Anyway, this is how my lower sleeves have egg'd a bit and opened the seam in the sleeves, and the wear pattern on the rubber bushings show the bias to the bottom. I know, they look a little toasty, but since they're "fitted" and feel really smooth still, they should be good to roll.

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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

The split sleeve may be the result of over tighting,the rubber bushing looks to be from tightening with the shock extended,putting twisting of the bushing.
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Another VW Engineering Blunder... Reply with quote

Just a thought.. What if the split in the rubber started on one side first and that breakage induced the twisting that damaged the metal. That initial split makes the remainoing solid part of the bush misaligned with the thrust from the shock absorber.
Then it starts chewing metal, especually if the nut and bolt were not fully tightened.

Replace the bushes and the bolts.

Look at it this way instead. Your bus has a problem, several million busses did not have a problem.

Your rubber bushing is split. It has just halved in strength because when you pull on the rubber it just opens up instead of stretching.
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