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TheWilliamAlan
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2011
Posts: 129
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 Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:53 am Post subject: Soon to be new 412 owner. |
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Picking up a 412 in a week or so if everything works out. Long time 60's Bug/Bus owner, first time Type 4 owner. The car is clean, running, and supposedly fairly reliable, so of course I need to mess with it... 
It sounds like its a fairly stock '74 412 wagon, with an 1800cc EFI motor. I want to swap to dual carbs, mainly for simplicity and the fact that I know what to do with carbs but not a clue with fuel injection. Good/Bad idea?
I also want to lower it about 2" front and 2 or more in the rear. Suggestions?
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'58 Euro Spec Beetle
'91 Vanagon Syncro 2.1 |
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TheWilliamAlan
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2011
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:00 am Post subject: Re: Soon to be new 412 owner. |
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Also, forgot about the gas heater. Unknown condition. This will be a spring-fall driver as we get snowy/icy roads here November through February. Can I just remove it? Swap it for normal heat? I read Ray's procedure for cleaning and updating the gas heater but I don't really want to do that as it most likely wouldn't be used.
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'58 Euro Spec Beetle
'91 Vanagon Syncro 2.1 |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Soon to be new 412 owner. |
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| TheWilliamAlan wrote: |
| Also, forgot about the gas heater. Unknown condition. This will be a spring-fall driver as we get snowy/icy roads here November through February. Can I just remove it? Swap it for normal heat? I read Ray's procedure for cleaning and updating the gas heater but I don't really want to do that as it most likely wouldn't be used. |
Welcome! 
1. You will regret getting rid of the injection. Carbs are NOT simpler...and the 1.8L is already under powered for what it is. Putting carbs on it will lose you roughly another 10hp.
The compression was lowered in the 1.8L for emissions. The L-jet injection is far simpler to work on than the original D-jet.
If you wanted to work on the engine to make it better.....and this goes for either the injection of twin carbs......do a basic refurbishment.....new main and rod bearings.....maybe rings. But bump the compression up to a minimum of 8.0:1. Get a new cam.
You will pick up 10hp with either carbs or injection but the twin carbs will still be lower hp until you get up in the 8.5:1 range.
2. Why would you want to remove the gas furnace.....other than just to have it out while refurbishing it?.....and yes....it will be used.
The stock heater boxes in this car are only capable .....at highway speeds and only to right about 40°F outside. Below that temp.....you will never even be able to defrost the front windshield.
The stock heater system without the gas furnace at highway speeds will keep the interior at a maximum of about 60F.....maximum.
In stop and go traffic.....and at anything below 55mph.....the interior temp will be close to outside temps when its about 40° or less outside.
Ray |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 786
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Soon to be new 412 owner. |
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Welcome TheWilliamAlan!!!
We all long to see some photos of your "new" car!
//Lars S
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Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver 
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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TheWilliamAlan
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2011
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:08 am Post subject: Re: Soon to be new 412 owner. |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Welcome!
1. You will regret getting rid of the injection. Carbs are NOT simpler...and the 1.8L is already under powered for what it is. Putting carbs on it will lose you roughly another 10hp.
The compression was lowered in the 1.8L for emissions. The L-jet injection is far simpler to work on than the original D-jet.
If you wanted to work on the engine to make it better.....and this goes for either the injection of twin carbs......do a basic refurbishment.....new main and rod bearings.....maybe rings. But bump the compression up to a minimum of 8.0:1. Get a new cam.
You will pick up 10hp with either carbs or injection but the twin carbs will still be lower hp until you get up in the 8.5:1 range.
2. Why would you want to remove the gas furnace.....other than just to have it out while refurbishing it?.....and yes....it will be used.
The stock heater boxes in this car are only capable .....at highway speeds and only to right about 40°F outside. Below that temp.....you will never even be able to defrost the front windshield.
The stock heater system without the gas furnace at highway speeds will keep the interior at a maximum of about 60F.....maximum.
In stop and go traffic.....and at anything below 55mph.....the interior temp will be close to outside temps when its about 40° or less outside.
Ray |
1. I say simpler for carbs because I know carbs. I do not know fuel injection. I do not want to deal with a computer. I love my Beetles. I know how to work on them. I'm excited for my 412 but I don't look forward to some of the complication.
2. Again, I just don't want to deal with the gas heater. I won't drive this thing when its cold. Can I just remove it or os there more to it?
_________________
'58 Euro Spec Beetle
'91 Vanagon Syncro 2.1 |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Soon to be new 412 owner. |
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| TheWilliamAlan wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Welcome!
1. You will regret getting rid of the injection. Carbs are NOT simpler...and the 1.8L is already under powered for what it is. Putting carbs on it will lose you roughly another 10hp.
The compression was lowered in the 1.8L for emissions. The L-jet injection is far simpler to work on than the original D-jet.
If you wanted to work on the engine to make it better.....and this goes for either the injection of twin carbs......do a basic refurbishment.....new main and rod bearings.....maybe rings. But bump the compression up to a minimum of 8.0:1. Get a new cam.
You will pick up 10hp with either carbs or injection but the twin carbs will still be lower hp until you get up in the 8.5:1 range.
2. Why would you want to remove the gas furnace.....other than just to have it out while refurbishing it?.....and yes....it will be used.
The stock heater boxes in this car are only capable .....at highway speeds and only to right about 40°F outside. Below that temp.....you will never even be able to defrost the front windshield.
The stock heater system without the gas furnace at highway speeds will keep the interior at a maximum of about 60F.....maximum.
In stop and go traffic.....and at anything below 55mph.....the interior temp will be close to outside temps when its about 40° or less outside.
Ray |
1. I say simpler for carbs because I know carbs. I do not know fuel injection. I do not want to deal with a computer. I love my Beetles. I know how to work on them. I'm excited for my 412 but I don't look forward to some of the complication.
2. Again, I just don't want to deal with the gas heater. I won't drive this thing when its cold. Can I just remove it or os there more to it? |
....I know where you are coming from with regard to computers. But since you like ole cars.....at least drive it for a while just to see how it feels and get an idea of what the stock fuel injection system is.
Unlike modern fuel injection.....calling the control unit of L-jet or D-jet....a "computer".....is like calling a stack of photographs flipped in front of your eyes like the cheap animation we used to do on the edges of notebooks when we were kids........a television!
There actually is NO computer.....and there is no software.....and there is no programming.
But we can get into that later.
Twin carbs can functiin very well.....but to really do well.....and have the vacuum to operate the modulator on the automatic transmission smoothly.....you will need to do a few things. Keeping it as close to stock carbs as possible will be a benefit.
And.....if you wanted to emulate a factory carbed 411/412.....that ran well with the occasional automatic....lets take a look at the UK version. Goinh off memory so dont quote me......you generally will need compression to 8.5:1.....a better cam, slightly better exhaust, always upgrade the ignition (better coil at minimum)....a few other minor items.
The gas furnace.....yes you can remove it. You will have to fashion hoses or pipes to link the heater boxes to the chassis inlet hoses. Or you could simply just leave it all in place and disconnect the fuel line from its pump.
Its not that hard to work on......and sooner or later you WILL need it even if you get caught in a freak weather change on an otherwise perfect fall or spring weekend of tooling around.
Also......post some pictures and condition please! You note its reliable? 
While the 411 and 412 can and have been what I would consider the MOST reliable out of all the types with the type 3 being a close second if not equal.....at this point in time.....unless the previous owner has done certain refurbishments to suspension and brakes.....there is no such thing as a reliable 411 or 412.
Please bear in mind....owning one of these is nothing like driving a beetle, bus or type 3. On those types.....one could say the car is reliable if it simply starts and runs and drives. On the type 4.....at this age.....it is the suspension and brakes that can stop you from driving. Without refurbishing certain items.....worn out items will wear out other items that you cannot easily replace.
We have answers for virtually everything at this point.....but tell us the cars condition and what has and has not been done. Ray |
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TheWilliamAlan
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2011
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Soon to be new 412 owner. |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
....I know where you are coming from with regard to computers. But since you like ole cars.....at least drive it for a while just to see how it feels and get an idea of what the stock fuel injection system is.
Unlike modern fuel injection.....calling the control unit of L-jet or D-jet....a "computer".....is like calling a stack of photographs flipped in front of your eyes like the cheap animation we used to do on the edges of notebooks when we were kids........a television!
There actually is NO computer.....and there is no software.....and there is no programming.
But we can get into that later.
Twin carbs can functiin very well.....but to really do well.....and have the vacuum to operate the modulator on the automatic transmission smoothly.....you will need to do a few things. Keeping it as close to stock carbs as possible will be a benefit.
And.....if you wanted to emulate a factory carbed 411/412.....that ran well with the occasional automatic....lets take a look at the UK version. Goinh off memory so dont quote me......you generally will need compression to 8.5:1.....a better cam, slightly better exhaust, always upgrade the ignition (better coil at minimum)....a few other minor items.
The gas furnace.....yes you can remove it. You will have to fashion hoses or pipes to link the heater boxes to the chassis inlet hoses. Or you could simply just leave it all in place and disconnect the fuel line from its pump.
Its not that hard to work on......and sooner or later you WILL need it even if you get caught in a freak weather change on an otherwise perfect fall or spring weekend of tooling around.
Also......post some pictures and condition please! You note its reliable?
While the 411 and 412 can and have been what I would consider the MOST reliable out of all the types with the type 3 being a close second if not equal.....at this point in time.....unless the previous owner has done certain refurbishments to suspension and brakes.....there is no such thing as a reliable 411 or 412.
Please bear in mind....owning one of these is nothing like driving a beetle, bus or type 3. On those types.....one could say the car is reliable if it simply starts and runs and drives. On the type 4.....at this age.....it is the suspension and brakes that can stop you from driving. Without refurbishing certain items.....worn out items will wear out other items that you cannot easily replace.
We have answers for virtually everything at this point.....but tell us the cars condition and what has and has not been done. Ray |
Ya I won't do anything right away just thinking about plans. Previous owner has done all new brakes and lines master cylinder wheel cylinders so it's probably good there assuming he did a good job. I'll give it a once over before I drive too much. He says it needs struts. I want to lower it. As much as possible and still drive. I've been reading the threads on it. I downloaded your document Ray but I haven't had a spare Weekend to read it. But from the forums it looks like e30 springs with Audi struts are the way to go. I'm sure I'll find out.
_________________
'58 Euro Spec Beetle
'91 Vanagon Syncro 2.1 |
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