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Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler
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rmcd
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Sodo. Thanks for sharing. I've learned a lot from ur posts.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Thanks RC, I'm glad someone's interested. I can't tell if interested members are refraining from muddy up a technical thread they want to follow.....or if it's just me "one-hand clapping". In any case I'm enjoying the project, with a goal to create a reliable "system". This is not just a "mod" it's a "system", it adds a few pages to my van's Bentley. Anyway thanks again for the encouragement.

This stuff is taking a lot of time, because I have a hard time deciding how it should go and don't want to go backwards and redo stuff thus I waste a lot more time trying to get it right, than I would if I just powered on then had the resolve to scrap when I change my mind. That's my problem.

Here's the current state of the dash panel. Showing the Rotabroach holecutter because the tool rules. I cut the rectangle out by first punching the holes, then plunging a thin cutting disc with the angle grinder which burnt the SS a little, not sure how to get that discoloration off. Panel is fitted to the right of the steering column. There are two ledges that can be screwed to, but need the the lowest point because of the "depth" of the INKBIRD controller.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Yellow line shows where I may cut the panel. I have not cut it obviously, for fear of cutters remorse. Could put more switches, indicators there, but prefer not to. I'd like to glue a flat sheet of textured black plastic to match the Vanagon dash. Where can I get this chunk? Like a small piece cut out of a glovebox.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Button is momentary. Blue halo on the button indicates that the manual override is activated. Pump stiicker came from some other component, but its not the right nomenclature, I will try to label it "manual" or "override" but prefer less letters. Maybe an "ice" icon.

Here it is powered up. Blue halo means that manual override is active. Controller is in "heat" mode because temp is below the 150*F setpoint. So currently the (un-used) "heat" relay switch is "ON"; I will cover it with black tape. When temp hits 150*F it starts a timer, and the "cool" light blinks during the "compressor delay". It goes solid once the "cool" switch is thrown, energizing terminal 86 of the oil pump+radiator fan relay. Temp may continue to rise a little during this delay.

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Here's appx where it sits on the dash. The bent lip of the stainless steel bezel coming forward sets ontop of the dash lip. There's enough space behind the center dash panel to hide the "latching relay contraption".

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Pretty much no excuses remaining to NOT hook it all up......and drive!
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....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
One apple every 8 hours will keep 3 doctors away - B Kliban


Last edited by Sodo on Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:06 am; edited 4 times in total
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
Thanks RC, I'm glad someone's interested.


Yeah, I'm enjoying all of you posts too. I'm usually in too big of hurry to post much, but it's really cool watching all of your thought processes and executions. Thanks for taking the time!

As for the finish on the switch panel, I would be inclined to use one of the SEM black chip guard products like #39813. If you experiment a little on some scrap, you can duplicate a variety of different textures.
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SteveMc
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

SteveMc wrote:
Fully insulated connectors may have been a safer choice. Also, relay sockets and small terminal strip could clean up all those jumpers and make it easier to follow and troubleshoot.
Example: https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-...5215_o.jpg


Sodo, I may have been overly brief and 'constructive' in this comment without acknowledging the fine work you are doing. I appreciate the efforts you are taking in regards your transaxle and have learned a great deal from your threads. Thanks
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

No worries Steve I can see you're anxious to help, that's the Samba! I wish I could whip out electrical circuits but I have can only run wires between other people's circuits. The relay "sockets" are same size as the relays = big. Sockets would double the volume and then there's big 12ga wires on all the terminals. Sockets would triple the volume of this thing. I think I'm gonna hafta just wrap it with tape. It's about as big as it can get. That link you posted looks nice but it's 5X the size of my contraption (which I think is already kinda big).

Plus I have some wicked 2-inch wide tape. Here's a pic where you can see how much bigger it would get using the relay sockets.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Apparently there's a way to do it with just two DPDT relays but I didn't have those in the toybox (nor the schematic). Two little DPDT relays would be ideal. I don't pretend to understand the logic of the schematic but I can see all the power goes thru some 85/86 coils so I know this thing can't switch 10A by itself, it just triggers a main relay.

To improve it I'm keeping an eye out for a circuitboard unit from China. If there were smaller relays that would be cool too but I had these Bosch type in the toybox (and the spade connectors too) so just had to press on. Cool
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Last edited by Sodo on Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I put the dash back together, with the panel installed. Stainless steel looks like a nice piece, but I hope to (have time to) put a black cover on it, or texture it black with that stuff T3 mentioned.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The blue halo on the button left of the controller display means the manual override is active.

I tossed the taped-up latching relay contraption on a shelf in the center behind the Locker knobs. There's plenty of room for it back there, even if it was 3x the size.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm getting pretty close to driving the van again! Add gear oil, put on the protection bars, the driveshaft, rear wheels, and it's drivable. Then to plumb in the wicked 10-micron filter.
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....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
One apple every 8 hours will keep 3 doctors away - B Kliban
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ejimmi
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Hey Sodo, solid effort on this project! Looks great!

Now on to the thread derailment, why does it look like you have two gas pedals and what's on the clutch pedal arm? Secret weapons systems?

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FrankenSubySyncro
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:15 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Sodo, nice work. At first I thought you may be going overboard but I like what you have come up with for the whole project.

As far as your SS panel, I have some carbon fiber sticker sheet left over from my panel that I can send you. PM me the dimensions and I will send you a piece.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

ejimmi wrote:
Now on to the thread derailment, why does it look like you have two gas pedals and what's on the clutch pedal arm? Secret weapons systems?


Hi jimmi, original vanagon gas pedal is just sitting there because I intend to restore the position for OEM ergonomics. Subaru DriveByWire pedal is 1.5" (or 3" horizontally) closer to the seat (other thread) and ergonomically uncomfortable (to me). Other device is a clamp-on clutch pedal travel limiter to prevent over-extension of the jetta slave in the Smallcar bellhousing (functions like a block of wood). I will do the Fred-mod someday as I don't like the clutch feel of the diameters mismatch but for now may've staved/faved the slave. Cool

FrankenSubySyncro wrote:
Sodo, nice work. At first I thought you may be going overboard but I like what you have come up with for the whole project.

As far as your SS panel, I have some carbon fiber sticker sheet left over from my panel that I can send you. PM me the dimensions and I will send you a piece.


FSS I certainly did go overboard. But once I saw what you get for $16 INKBIRD I had to use it. I'm going to use one to control my Truckfridge too. I also bought 2 spares. Thanks for the offer on the carbonfibre decal but my first inclination is to make it disappear. I'd like to find a piece of black Vanagon dash panel that I can cut a facade out of (and cover the steel).

I'll put my Glowshift temp-guage/switch in the classifieds once I decide this micro-computer-controlled system is reliable. I would assemble the sensor extension with Sure-seal connectors and include it too for plug-n-play. Connectors are all-rubber and very waterproof.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I potted the Mini-switch and LED because the wires are so tiny & fragile. In my setup the switch was for override, but it could be used to directly control the pump. It's a 3A switch so a relay is required.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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EJ25, Peloquin diff, locker, transaxle oil cooler/filtration system
....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
One apple every 8 hours will keep 3 doctors away - B Kliban


Last edited by Sodo on Mon May 02, 2016 6:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 10:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I've been driving the van. The microprocessor temp controller works like a dream.

Made some thermowells today. A 3/4-16 spare for myself, and a couple 1/4NPT units for a friend. TIG'd them and Nickel plated.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Also made a bracket for the 12 micron hydraulic filter. Made from stainless steel.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A vertical support on the upper side of the splash guards goes up to the radiator tank bracket.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

You are just having way too much fun! Very Happy
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:00 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Made a guard for the temp sensor wire.
Drilling holes on inside surface for Rivnuts. Can't drill "square".

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My "rivnut rig."

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Rivnuts installed.

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Guard welded.

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Sensor guard painted. There's 6mm between the crossbar and the case rib. Other areas are closer than that. If it touches pretty sure It will make noise then have to clearance it.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

I'm in the planning stages of a cooling/filtering system for my freshly rebuilt $yncro transaxle. Thanks to Sodo et al. for documenting all their efforts!

To stay on the topic of electronic control of the pump/fan... in my current plan I have a single 1/8 NPT port that I'd like to use for a temp gauge sender. This is a typical variable-resistance type sender made by VDO:

https://www.vdo-gauges.com/sensors/temperature-sen...1-9-1.html

I'd prefer to not have to drill another hole in the transaxle for a temp switch, so I'm wondering if I can make the sender serve double duty for temp gauge/switch.

My original thought was to find some type of gauge w/ a settable warning light function that I could co-opt to trigger the fan/pump relay. But I came up empty.

After a little digging I found this cheap little current sensing relay: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/12V-Digital-0-10A-...4.2.3lxc0g

The idea being that as the sender heats up (and resistance falls) the increase in current would, in principle, trigger the fan/pump relay. The neat thing about this relay is that (a) it's adjustable and (b) it can be programmed with a time delay/hysteresis function to minimize excessive switching...

My concerns/questions:
(1) would adding this switch in-line with the gauge sender mess up my gauge accuracy? i'm totally ignorant as to how these sensing relays work...
(2) would the range of currents in the sender wire be enough to trigger? from the info i found, it seems the resistance range in these sensors is nearly an order of magnitude in the expected temp range (e.g., assuming 14V: 1486 ohms @ 10 degC = ~7 mA -> 185 ohms @ 65 degC = 77 mA). Advertised accuracy is 10 mA... hmmm, maybe not sensitive enough?
(3) is this a whacky idea? other ideas welcomed (given the constraint of not wanting any more holes in my transaxle).

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Kbpo the electonic controller I'm using (INKBIRD, $16) is a one-holer. It has a 3-digitguage on it and comes with a matched sensor for $16. You'll have to
make the " temperature well". Its possible to do it in 1/8NPT but I used 1/4NPT.

The INKBIRD comes with English instructions. I've been using it for a year and it works like a dream. I'm currently using a program set point of 130F to run more often because it filters the oil. I have a run-timer too that displays minutes. For example on a 3 hour drive it ran 31 minutes. Then the same drive, days later and 10F hotter ambient temp it ran 80 minutes. This is at 130F setpoint. I think under 150F is ideal.
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....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Thanks Sodo. And yeah--I like the idea of the Inkbird controller (in fact, a few years ago I installed an AC version of the same unit to control a homemade kegerator). But my hope was to retain my current gauge/probe setup...

Given how cheap the Chinese temp controller are, I may just buy one and try adhering it to the outside of the transaxle as others have done. All accounts suggest that internal/external temps are highly correlated. That way I'll have a 'true' temp measured from my internal gauge setup, as well as a adjustable switching circuit.

Also, since the Inkbird temp probe does not appear to require electrical grounding, I'm going to try using a thermally conductive epoxy (like Arctic Alumina) to glue it to the case.

p.s. On a sidenote, I independently stumbled on those same inexpensive LED circle momentary switches as well... used them for controlling an auxiliary fuel tank transfer pump. Will post the setup when I get the time...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:43 am    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Hey KPBO,
I'd like to emphasize your usage of the word "All accounts suggest that internal/external temps are highly correlated", as that is definitely the correct term here. There is exactly one decent data point on that, from FrakenSubiSyncro who has run both on the same van (but not at the same time). My gut feeling, from hours of watching the temp gauge on my external sensor, and hours of talking with Sodo about his various internal sensor setups, is that the an external sensor has more lag in it's response time due to the added thermal inertia of the case. Granted any spread of heat from 4th gear or even the R&P will take time, but I kinda feel the case adds just a bit more.

Obviously an external probe is a hell of a lot easier to install though! FrakenSubiSyncro is really the only one who can really speak to any real-world differences, unless Sodo wants to Science Up and add an external temp sensor next to his internal one. Wink
Or just hop out quickly and shoot the case next to the internal sensor after climbing a hill.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Apparently there's a way to do it with just two DPDT relays but I didn't have those in the toybox (nor the schematic). Two little DPDT relays would be ideal. I don't pretend to understand the logic of the schematic but I can see all the power goes thru some 85/86 coils so I know this thing can't switch 10A by itself, it just triggers a main relay.

...


Sodo, I've often had the need for a latching relay that could be toggled by a remote momentary button switch. I've seen that 4-relay logic array you're using on electrical websites, it's a horribly ungainly way to achieve such a simple function. I knew there had to be a more compact and elegant way to do it, but I could never find anything on the web or in any of my books.

So, naturally, I set myself the goal to use a single DPDT relay with a remote momentary pushbutton switch to create a toggling/latching function, employing my very shallow understanding of electronic circuits. The relay I used is a very common small 10A DPDT you used to find at Radio Crack and is sold by McMasterCarr, etc.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Here's a sketch of the solution, it works really nicely.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There are base sockets available for this relay, with a base the extra circuits can easily be wired between the base pins so the relay itself is easy to change out.

This uses one of the poles to switch and hold the other, the second pole can be used for anything and it is electrically isolated from the control side. There is a steady 25mA current thru the control side, limited by the resistors and the coil impedance; the circuit can remain live indefinitely without heating up at all. The current the momentary switch handles is miniscule so the tiniest remote switch and wire can be used. When the 12V supply is removed the relay defaults to its idle position. It requires 11V minimum to work.

I haven't experimented with scaling it up to a larger relay, but by knowing the relay's coil resistance and applying some simple math and a little experimentation I'm sure you could find the right combo. If you need to control more than 10A the second pole can simply control a larger conventional relay, too, and it could do so remotely. When it's activated, the coil current is about 1/3 what it would normally be, so I would derate the second pole contact a bit. You could easily measure the resistance or V drop across it to come to your own conclusions as to how much you want to let it handle.

Anyway you might be able to use this. It takes up less than a third of the space the 4-relay bank does.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

So thought I'd share the way mine works.
I have two temp sensors (one for the visual gauge at the dash), and one for a temperature based relay.
Both sensors are in the transmission, easy to do with a drill and if you tap slowly and use grease it won't get any metal in there (plus it's just magnesium and you're gonna filter anyway)
The temp sensor is wired to this http://www.lingenfelter.com/PDFdownloads/L460220000.pdf
And turns on the pump and fan for the cooler at 140. You can set the hysteresis so it stays on until its anywhere from 5-25 degrees cooler, so that it's not constantly cycling

I also have the pump (without the fan) wired to this http://www.lingenfelter.com/PDFdownloads/L460340004.pdf
So that it goes on at 40 mph (the lowest speed I would shift into 4th)regardless of the temp in order to lubricate the 4th/MS
At typical 70mph the fan relay is rarely triggered(temp usually sits at 135), but when my speed drops and load is increased (climbing a pass) the airflow drops and temp increases and the temp based relay kicks in and turns on the fan dropping my temps.
At low speed dirt road climbing the speed relay obviously isn't triggered but since there's low air flow over the cooler it often triggers the temp relay turning on the fan and the pump

So far even in this wretched heat and Colorado mtn highway passes and steep dirt roads my temp hasn't gone over 160, even on sustained climbs in 85 degree heat
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:

Anyway you might be able to use this. It takes up less than a third of the space the 4-relay bank does.


Thats a nice, simple solution, just a relay, resistor and capacitor. I've been goofing around with other solutions, but they are all more complcated than that unit. I did find a smaller solution, but anyway that one's small enough! And it's "serviceable".

I've often wondered why theres no ready-made component, as a single catalog-item, for this task (key-cancel).

To repeat what this unit does......, the "latching relay" uses a momentary button-press to start the pump, (or whatever). If you turn off the vehicle ignition, the relay "cancels"(shuts off). If you turn the vehicle ignition on again, the pump does not restart (unless you push the momentary button again).
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EJ25, Peloquin diff, locker, transaxle oil cooler/filtration system
....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
One apple every 8 hours will keep 3 doctors away - B Kliban


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature Control (electric) - Manual Transaxle gearoil cooler Reply with quote

Iíve been following this project with interest. At this time all I want is to see how hot its running through a digital display.

So the first mistake I made last year was I got a standard ⅛NPT temperature sensor and tried to make it work. Unfortunately I donít want a giant round 52mm racing dial, and after much research I realized thatís all they make for the screw-in Bosch NTC (Negative Temperature Coeffecient) sensors. There is no way to translate the sensorís output to drive a digital LED readout.

BTW that would make a nifty little product, an A->D converter with programmable inversion and nonlinear curve. That would enable any thermal sensor to drive any digital thermostat. Have never heard of such a device.

So I see how Sodo solved the problem by using a non-automotive (fish tank) thermal sensor embedded in a screw-in tube. I wonder if one can be made to fit my existing ⅛NPT hole? I got the thermostat and explored the menu. I notice it has an adjustment for sensor inexactitude, optional time-delayed on-off, hysteresis and other programmable goodies. Pretty cool.

Thanks for all the inspiration!
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Vanagon í83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD.
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