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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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 Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:12 am Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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| chrissev2 wrote: |
Things I noticed about your situation:
- that engine has for sure suffered from some form of either mis timing or timing belt break in the past. As pointed out by other posters, the piston crowns have valve indentations in them. That is a sure sign that at some point the timing was off enough so that the pistons hit the valves.
- I think your head is warped. You can see in the middle where there is a lot of coolant movement across the head gasket and into the oil channels and apparently also into the cylinders. It would probably be a better idea just to get a new head. I have the KOLBENSCHMIDT AAZ head on my 1.9TD in my vanagon and it is working very well.
There is a limited amount that you can really play around with a 30+ year old cylinder head with every problem in the book. At some point it becomes a piece of scrap aluminum. Yours looks close to that point.
- You should not use the 1.6TD fibre head gasket. They are garbage. Use the metal AAZ gasket. Much better and it fits fine on that engine.
- since you have the whole thing apart, you might seriously want to consider refreshing that block. It looks like it could benefit from a rebuild. Those blocks are neither difficult nor expensive to rebuild and the parts are available and cheap. With the help of a local machine shop it is not a difficult job.
I see a well used JX motor that has had a difficult life. While it would probably be possible to patch it together for some additional limited life, why bother? Just freshen it up, replace the head and then you have a trouble free motor for many hundreds of thousands of kilometers of driving. |
Thanks so much for these accurate reflections. The only issue at the moment is TIME. We were supposed to leave on July 1st, and I still need to pass the State Tech. Exam... so really, right now there is no time to touch the block.
I think you are correct about the head being warped - I just wonder about the block's combustion face... but do those actually warp??
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epowell
Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:14 am Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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| Team WorldTour wrote: |
The KS WILL be better than the AMC, and no, NO new head bolts will come with the new head. You must buy them separately.
I would invest in the new head, have the summer Holiday, and then put the new head on the new engine during winter hibernation. |
Yes exactly. I have been thinking that I might get another 2 years out of my current block, but maybe this coming Winter should be the time to rebuild my other JX block - get it done!
[and of course there is always the tranny situation to consider]
...oh boy, one day my head will be above water 
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?Waldo?
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:48 am Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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The JX is a solid lifter engine and **cannot** use the AAZ mls gasket without modifications to address the extra oil drain opening in the MLS gasket. Used as is, coolant will gush out of the engine at the head gasket if the AAZ gasket is used.
I would agree with TWT that the KS is a better head than the AMC. Either would be fine, though. |
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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
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Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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| epowell wrote: |
| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| I imagine the KS head is better than the AMC, but a few years ago I bought a complete new AMC head for my ALH and was really impressed with the visible quality of the kit--especially for less than $300. It even came with new head bolts. I'm keeping it as a spare and thus haven't run it yet. |
How did you find a new AMC head for $300???!
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ECS Tuning was having a sale at the same time I had the funds. Last I checked they were selling them for around $800
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
ECS Tuning was having a sale at the same time I had the funds. |
Too bad they are not on sale right now >>> but I am grateful that they are still available and that they are not costing thousands, and they are not made in China. In fact right there is a lot to be thankful for.
| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
I would agree with TWT that the KS is a better head than the AMC. Either would be fine, though. |
Spending that much already, might as well throw in another 100 bucks and get the something German. I heard that AMC heads for WBX actually have a very good reputation - but a bit less so for Diesels?
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Zeitgeist 13
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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AMC heads for the WBX do have a good reputation for the castings, but not the valves they install in them. I'm considering pulling the valves in my ALH head and replacing them preemptively, or at least pulling them to inspect prior to installation.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| AMC heads for the WBX do have a good reputation for the castings, but not the valves they install in them. I'm considering pulling the valves in my ALH head and replacing them preemptively, or at least pulling them to inspect prior to installation. |
Boy I look forward to the day when I will start to be concerned about the possible quality of my NEW backup parts!!!  
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Zeitgeist 13
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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I believe the term used to describe people like me is bottom-feeder. I'm notorious for milking extra miles from used parts or modifying cheap new parts or parts from different applications to make them work. It generally has paid off well for me, but does require lots of time and effort most saner types can't or won't bother doing. As a general rule if you have the funds, pay for the highest quality and most exacting parts for the application.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
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Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| bottom-feeder. |
Yes I'm like you also in this when I have the time. I don't like to waste resources and money.
...but right now free time is not available and I have the money so > it will be a new KS head.
I bought a new Borg Warner turbo recently... I am glad to have a new original OEM turbo on there, but I did 'cheap out' in the sense that I got a K24 because it was $400 (!!!!!) cheaper than the K14 (which is the correct model for my engine). but I am under the assumption that in terms of reliability (not performance) both turbos will be the same.
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epowell
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Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:43 am Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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...just ordered the KS head from Germany!
Hopefully we will be rolling again soon 
Now I am really committed to a "JX" engine. I know they are not the best option in terms of performance and economy... but I like them ...and I have a good used block upstairs in much better condition than my current one - so soon I will rebuild that.
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dobryan
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MarkWard
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:14 am Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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I'd save the new head for the new engine. You can build it while you have the other complete engine in the van and running. I know I am swimming against the current, but I still would not have a problem putting the head back on with a new gasket. You could even reuse the head bolts. Rather than the 1/4 turn, torque them to 69 foot pounds. Take this opportunity to get the van back on the road for your trip and gain some experience. Its only a temporary repair. You could have left it alone and still made your trip successfully.
Granted it is maybe not the book way to do it, but I think you will be rushing to get the new cylinder head on and no telling what you may run into. The engine was running, just bypassing some compression into the cooling system. Take your time and build the new engine after you return.
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epowell
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:50 am Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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Mark, no there is no way on Earth I could have made the trip as it was. I could barely drive up a small hill and it was over-heating. I guess you missed the part regarding how bad it was getting. And furthermore I am not sure but I think that head is warped.
If anything it might have been a more cost effective tactic to use my '91 head with new PCs...
Certainly if I was just going to be driving around here locally I would not have gone for a new head, but being hundreds of miles away from home I don't think it would be wise to go with an old potentially unstable head.
What is wrong with using a new head on an old block? Will the old worn out block in some way stress out the new head more quickly?
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epowell
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| Sometimes it is just good to stick with what you know and are comfortable with and is reliable.... Kind of like a marriage. |
I agree "The Devil you know"
It also depends on ones goals. I don't care about performance, I don't even care if my van looks good (attracting more thieves) > my major priorities are RELIABILITY and REPAIR SELF-SUFFICIENCY. In all honestly I would like to take care of the major components of my van - get it done - then be able to return back to areas of my life like performing music and building instruments.
Having said that, once I take care of the engine and the tranny, I'll be in pretty GOOD shape I figure. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since I got my van. I was just thinking today that on Monday, in one single day, I managed to get the head completely off. I remember 18 months ago when I started this adventure it took me 3 days just to get the CAM BOLT off!!! 
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epowell
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
| I would also highly recommend getting a can of the Hylomar spray. |
I am not sure if I can get this here easily or at all.... if not then what else can I use? I have high-heat gasket caulk, and copper sealant....?
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MarkWard
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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A tired bottom end with a new top end is not a good combination. I install head gaskets clean with a block and head surface wiped down with acetone or lacquer thinner. The gasket is designed to adhere to the surfaces. If you are not comfortable installing the gasket clean, copper coat spray will work if the hylomar is not available.
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epowell
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
| A tired bottom end with a new top end is not a good combination. |
Why not?
...but in any case "good" or "bad" combination theories notwithstanding, that KS head is going to be a lot more reliable > no question about that. It is a short holiday trip (hopefully with no break-downs), then the van hardly gets used at all in the Winter during which I will re-build the other JX block. My motivation to DO that is now higher - I agree it would be nice to have NEW with NEW.
...and then there is the question of tranny.... mine works fine but the housing shows serious signs of aging. I checked the tranny fluid recently and it is clean and clear as a bottle of olive oil. Anyhow I am keeping my eyes open for trannys. Actually I know where there is a DM (50eur) which works without noise (but can't get into first) > I would like to try my hand at repairing that myself. >>> or perhaps being lazy and giving it to a Czech Tranny Guru I heard about who's prices are reasonable.
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Last edited by epowell on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:37 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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ZsZ
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Joined: December 11, 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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| epowell wrote: |
| MarkWard wrote: |
| A tired bottom end with a new top end is not a good combination. |
Why not?
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There might be some bigger problems hiding in the bottom end which can revealed by the changing combustion caused by the new head
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Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
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epowell
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:55 am Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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| ZsZ wrote: |
| epowell wrote: |
| MarkWard wrote: |
| A tired bottom end with a new top end is not a good combination. |
Why not?
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There might be some bigger problems hiding in the bottom end which can revealed by the changing combustion caused by the new head |
You mean the bottom 'got used to' a certain behavior from above... ?
[But this suggests that also another "old" head could cause problems... so is the point then that it is not that a NEW head and OLD block is disadvantageous, but rather that with an old block, ANY different head might reveal 'hidden issues' in the block?]
I still would guess that the risk of that causing a breakdown would be less than the risk of that old damaged head causing a breakdown... but I can see that the situation will not be ideal until I re-new the block.
This gives me the needed "push" to get that done this Winter.
Anyhow, on this upcoming trip I will be very gentle >>> we are also considering changing our "Balkan" plan, and instead heading straight north to the "Baltic" Sea... zero mountains over there and cooler weather would be much easier on the engine.
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epowell
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:29 am Post subject: Re: 1.6TD head gasket & cylinder head work |
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| ZsZ wrote: |
There might be some bigger problems hiding in the bottom end which can revealed by the changing combustion caused by the new head |
Thinking logically on this I am still having trouble figuring out how this could be... usually when we bring one worn out element of a mechanical system up from 'out of spec' to 'into spec' this takes stress off all the other elements, no?
But... specifically in this case, combustion from my old head would have been a bit 'out of spec' and therefore not as efficient and powerful as would be the combustion from the new head which will be "in spec". So therefore with a "new" and more powerful combustion behavior (in spec) this might cause more POWER to flow thru the bottom end. And if any elements in the bottom end are 'borderline' this new boost in power might trigger a failure(?).
So if the above would be the potential risk then it seems to me that a slow/gentle driving style would avert any problems. Perhaps with the new head the engine might "feel" more responsive and more powerful (?), and the trick will be to avoid the temptation to exploit this illusion of more power because in fact there will be no more power at all (until the block gets re-built).
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