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James Dwan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

So I took out the distributer, replaced points and condenser then switched out the cap like I have done a thousand times.

Except this time it wouldn't turn over then a loud pop. I am pretty sure I put the wires back correctly on the new cap. I can't find any resources to confirm this. Where can I find a diagram?

I noticed that the FLAPS sold me the wrong rotor, it's for a 019. Could the condenser cause this if it's the wrong one as well? Point gap?
It's a 009 on a '77 stock FI Type IV.
Thanks.
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James Dwan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

Update: I turned the engine so the rotor was pointing to number 1, placed the plug wire on the dizzy opening that the rotor was pointing to, turned over but runs poorly then back fires and dies
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

You need to set your engine to TDC Number 1 looking at either the valves or the piston with spark plug removed.

The distributor has no idea where the engine is, so it can be pointed anywhere.
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James Dwan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

I rotated the engine so the rotor was pointing to #1 cylinder, placed the wire from that plug to sit on the cap above where the rotor was pointing then the 1st wire counter clockwise to #4 cylinder, next to #3 then #2 to match the firing order.
Evidently I messed up the wires switching the cap. First time in 27 years Embarassed
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

James Dwan wrote:
I rotated the engine so the rotor was pointing to #1 cylinder, placed the wire from that plug to sit on the cap above where the rotor was pointing then the 1st wire counter clockwise to #4 cylinder,


Well that's yer problem since the engine spins clockwise Very Happy

1-4-3-2 clockwise around the distributor.

Also the notch in the rim of the distributor that represents #1 is only meaningful if you know for certain that your distributor drive gear has been installed correctly.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

Ok, so I found out what the problem was with the odd timing issue and running like complete crap. the rotor was the wrong one. It was a 1/16th too long and was rubbing against the inside of the cap:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The correct size is 15/16ths:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So now I am trying to diagnose the problem of low idle, engine shaking while idling and over all loss of power. Timing is correct and the dwell is 47ish.

I am leaning towards exhaust leak caused by the very loud back firing from the #1 & #2 wires being switched.
I do smell exhaust as well so I am planning on taking it in Saturday. If there is a leak, I can't find it so putting it on a lift may expose the leak.

Do these symptoms sound like an exhaust leak?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

the rotor would not hit the cap while rotating. it would wipe out the terminal posts or break long before hitting the side of the cap. and "1/16" " (how much is that in mm, like 2?) would not make that big a difference.
you need an 04033 rotor for an 009 (long number 1 234 332 215)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

The rotor was clearly hitting the cap, there were orange plastic shavings inside the distributer, the cap was brand new as was the rotor which show scoring.
What else would cause this?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

Did it break the rotor where it slides onto the distributor?
When using your calibers you read the numbers inside the window,you said 15/16 but the calibers reads more like 1 and 7/8.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

lil-jinx wrote:
Did it break the rotor where it slides onto the distributor?
When using your calibers you read the numbers inside the window,you said 15/16 but the calibers reads more like 1 and 7/8.


The caliber reads 15/16 on the bottom picture and 16/16 on the top.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

James Dwan wrote:
The rotor was clearly hitting the cap, there were orange plastic shavings inside the distributer, the cap was brand new as was the rotor which show scoring.
What else would cause this?


improper installation? the shavings could have come from forcing the rotor onto the shaft. and like lil-jinx suggested, what does the inside of the rotor look like?
the i.d. where the rotor fits onto the distributor shaft is smaller on the "019 rotor" (bosch long number ending in 088) you said you got at the store. the correct rotor 04033 / 215 is slightly larger internally.

one other thing: you are measuring at an irrelevant location. the important measurement is from the center of the rotor to the tip of the brass end. and as far as i know, with the exception of a 383 (25hp) and a big 40hp distributor, that distance is the same throughout all years and stock air cooled distributors.

another thought: is the mechanical advance mechanism oiled and properly working in your 009? they are well known to freeze up if not lubricated regularly.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

Reading the caliber,look at the window in the part that slides you will see a small scale,you read at that scale.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

The inside of the rotor looks fine. Regardless of where I took the measurements on the micrometer, they are different one is longer, which accounts for the scratching on the cap and the timing issue. The wrong rotor and the correct rotor fit onto the shaft with the same appoint of effort, minimal.

Does anyone have suggestions on a diagnosis for my current problem?
Exhaust leak?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

it's not physically possible for the correct rotor to hit the side of the correct cap like in your pics unless something is installed improperly or you have the wrong parts.
if your rotor was so much longer that it hit the side of the cap, at a rather wide area in the cap, it would hit the terminal posts and break something as soon as you cranked the engine.
after looking at your scuff pic again, it looks like that happened while you installed the cap, not while it was running. that is/could be possible when trying to wrassle a cap onto a distributor in the cramped area on a type 4 engine, i could see that happening.
i tried, and tried, and tried to properly install a correct rotor onto an 009 and get the same scratches on a cap. i could not.
i intentionally installed a rotor incorrectly and was able to get slight scuffs (up and down) when trying to put the cap on.

so what is the part number of the "shorter" rotor?
what rotor made the mark (part number?)?
what cap do you have (part number?)?

i offered a possible diagnosis for your current problem. have you checked?
perhaps take a video and post it? can you post some more/better overall engine pics? maybe you have a vacuum leak?
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Last edited by hazetguy on Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

You may be able to find the exhaust leak by having someone hold a damp rag over the tail pipe,the leak should become more pronounced when doing that.
I have read that a back fire could damage certain components of the FI system,that could be the cause of your current problem.Apparently the reason VW did not put clamps on vacuum lines is so the line pops off in the event of a backfire so the FI component don't get damaged.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8464213#8464213

Here is where i saw it
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

James....look carefully at your picture.....do you notice the whitish/pinkish scuff looking hatch marks around the outer periphery of your distributor cap?

Those are scuff marks from the edge of the distributor.....caused by having the edge of the cap riding on the aluminum edge of the distributor instead of being on the outside.

Also notice that the "ding mark" on the inside of the cap is roughly 180 opposite the scuffing on the edge of the cap.

This is caused by the cap being seated crooked at an angle. It will cause roughly two ingition poles to be so far from the end of the rotor that you will likely get only a weak apark if any at all.....and will cause the rotor to scrape the inside on the opposite side.

Hazetguy had it right. Cap not seated.

Is that a Bosch cap?....
The color and locating lugs look a little odd.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Spark plug wiring Reply with quote

I should also mention.....that I have done this before on my very first VW Laughing ......if you have your head in the engine compartment the racket will scare hell out of you.

And the pops and bangs in the ignition it causes are alarming. If you remeber that installing the clips was more of a hassle or tighter than normal.....this is what you did. Ray
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