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James Dwan
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Joined: July 16, 2004
Posts: 789
Location: Tejas
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 Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:28 am Post subject: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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So I pulled the 009 distributor, replaced the points, condenser and then proceeded to pull each plug wire one at a time to place onto the new cap.
Started it and it wouldn't turn over and got a very loud backfire.
I assumed that I put the wire on wrong for #1, so I switched them. It started and I think it sounded fine. Turned the key off. Next time I started the engine it sounded under powered and when I let off the accelerator I heard some popping.
Searched for intake leaks that may have occurred due to the several back fires before I got the wires right. Nothing even checked all the nuts on the air intake.
Replaced new condenser with another new condenser, same problem. Hit it with a timing light and it is WAY off. I don't understand how this happened. I put the distributor back in correctly because the clamp was still on it.
It doesn't respond to timing adjustments and when I put it where it needs to be, it dies.
I'm going to put the old cap, points and rotor on tonight and see if I can get back to where I was but was wondering if anyone had any suggestions as to what is going on.
Thanks.
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DAC
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
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Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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Well, at this point I'd suggest starting over and check everything for being correct. Don't make assumptions. First, find TDC for #1 by watching the index mark on the fan and scale plus look at the rockers for #1 to verify they are both closed. Then look at the rotor and see where it's pointing. It should be pointing at an index mark on the rim of the distributor. That's where #1 spark plug wire connects. From there, the wire go CCW 2 3 4. Don't turn the engine over with the distributor removed or the drive gear could pop up. If you never removed the clamp then your timing should be close enough to fire the engine. If you check all those things and still have troubles I would suspect you either installed the tune up parts wrong or have bad parts from stock. Reinstall your old rotor and try again.
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Globespotter
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James Dwan
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Joined: July 16, 2004
Posts: 789
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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I did take off the cap and found #1 notch on the rim of the dizzy wires are back to the original location, each combination of wires to 2,3 & 4 were tried so I am confident the wires are in place.It wouldn't start with any of the other combinations, just turning and back fire.
I don't think the dizzy could be off 180, because the clamp was never removed.
I checked all the hoses and found no leaks or anything loose.
I am wondering about the points or the cap at this point. I doubt 2 new condensers would replicate the same issue so I'm gonna start with those after work.
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DAC
TCB
'59 23 Window Deluxe
'73/'77 Westfakia
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"Many dreams come true, and some have silver linings.
I live for my dreams and a pocket full of gold. Acapulco gold!" Robert Plant |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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| What does the dwell meter read? |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5993
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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| James Dwan wrote: |
| I did take off the cap and found #1 notch on the rim |
That doesn't necessarily mean the notch is actually TDC for #1. You need to verify TDC on #1 physically (pull valve cover).
Remember that TDC comes around twice each cycle for #1, but only one of those times is TDC on the compression stroke which is when the plug needs to fire. When it's at TDC on compression stroke both valves will be closed. When it's at the other TDC on the exhaust stroke the intake valve will be closed but the exhaust valve will be open so the rockers will be in different positions.
Then once you know you're at TDC, whatever position the rotor is pointing to is #1. It might not be the one with the notch if your distributor drive gear was installed wrong back in the day.
So whichever position on the cap the rotor is sitting under gets the #1 wire. Then CLOCKWISE around the cap 4 3 2.
| Quote: |
of the dizzy wires are back to the original location, each combination of wires to 2,3 & 4 were tried |
Why are you trying combinations of wires? There is one right way. Do it that way. Don't guess.
| Quote: |
so I am confident the wires are in place. |
I am not confident.
But also yes what are you seeing on the dwell meter when cranking the engine?
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timvw7476
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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First, get the cap off, twist the rotor to & fro to make positive the shaft is
seated in the drive dowel, everybody has done it at least once in their lives
while doing tune ups on VWs. Check that first then proceed with anything else. |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5993
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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| timvw7476 wrote: |
First, get the cap off, twist the rotor to & fro to make positive the shaft is
seated in the drive dowel, everybody has done it at least once in their lives
while doing tune ups on VWs. Check that first then proceed with anything else. |
^^^^^^
Great advice. If you can spin the rotor shaft around then either the rotor is not seated in its notch on the shaft or the shaft itself is not seated in the drive gear.
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Tcash
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Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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Finding TDC #1/ Installing Drive Gear and Dist.
Once you find #1 TDC on the compression stroke, (not the exhaust stroke)
Put the #1 spark plug wire in the distributor cap hole, where the rotor is pointing. Then work your way around.
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andrewtf
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Joined: August 10, 2011
Posts: 602
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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This is a long shot and I'm half talking out of my ass - but it happened to us (Big Emma). We had a backfire as the bus was shut off. After that it wouldn't start for the life of us. We spent two days trying everything...... changing plugs, doing smoke tests, gapping the plugs again, changing points. It was very frustrating. The bus would always turn over but never fire.
As a last resort we opened the AFM. Apparently at the backfire, the AFM was blasted fully open (don't ask me why or how). And the wiper was wedged stuck fully open. We flicked it back free and all was well.
It might be worth at least a look.
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Amskeptic
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Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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| James Dwan wrote: |
So I pulled the 009 distributor, replaced the points, condenser and then proceeded to pull each plug wire one at a time to place onto the new cap.
Started it and it wouldn't turn over and got a very loud backfire.
I assumed that I put the wire on wrong for #1, so I switched them. It started and I think it sounded fine. Turned the key off. Next time I started the engine it sounded under powered and when I let off the accelerator I heard some popping.
Searched for intake leaks that may have occurred due to the several back fires before I got the wires right. Nothing even checked all the nuts on the air intake.
Replaced new condenser with another new condenser, same problem. Hit it with a timing light and it is WAY off. I don't understand how this happened. I put the distributor back in correctly because the clamp was still on it.
It doesn't respond to timing adjustments and when I put it where it needs to be, it dies.
I'm going to put the old cap, points and rotor on tonight and see if I can get back to where I was but was wondering if anyone had any suggestions as to what is going on.
Thanks. |
We need to perform a trouble-shooting refresher course with you.
Colin
(is the brake booster line secure in the rubber wye on the intake manifold?)
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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Link
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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009 won't match the standard picture in the book because the 009 clocks differently than a standard distributor.
The drive dog on the distributor has a pair of protrusions that sit in the drive gear. In the center of the drive gear there is a spring. Make sure it hasn't fallen out and is blocking the drive dog from seating. Next look at the drive gear and drive dog. There are two half moons on either side of the protrusions/slot. One is larger than the other. Make sure the drive dog sits the same as the drive gear and that it goes all the way down. Then lock it down.
Put the rubbing block, which you should have lubricated with lobe grease, on a lobe and measure the gap. Once you are sure it is correct then pop the valve cover off the 1-2 cylinders. Rotate the engine until the 1I and 1E rocker arms are all the way out and in TDC position. Remember that the distributor and cam turn 1 time for every 2 engine revolutions.
Now rotate the rotor gently to be sure it is seated in the notch. Figure how the cap fits on and make a mark on the top of it where the rotor is pointing. That is #1. Insert #1 wire and hook it up to the plug. Do each wire one at a time. If you have a dwell meter check it. Check the timing also. You should be good to go. If it is FI check the hoses and the AFM door to be sure it isn't jammed.
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James Dwan
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2004
Posts: 789
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| What does the dwell meter read? |
47ish
_________________
DAC
TCB
'59 23 Window Deluxe
'73/'77 Westfakia
'78 SuperVert
"Many dreams come true, and some have silver linings.
I live for my dreams and a pocket full of gold. Acapulco gold!" Robert Plant |
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James Dwan
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Joined: July 16, 2004
Posts: 789
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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Thanks for all the replies, Iw ill have to wait until Saturday morning since it is 100 degrees by the time I get home.
The wiring for the dizzy is different on my Type IV than on my Type 1. But the ones on the right either go to #1 or #2 so that is why I switched them only.
When I seat the rotor it does not spin all the way around so the dizzy must be seated properly.
_________________
DAC
TCB
'59 23 Window Deluxe
'73/'77 Westfakia
'78 SuperVert
"Many dreams come true, and some have silver linings.
I live for my dreams and a pocket full of gold. Acapulco gold!" Robert Plant |
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60vwnewengland
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Joined: June 25, 2003
Posts: 1784
Location: District of Columbia & Cape Cod
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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Hands down best post of 2017.
Does Ev still give out the Chummy Awards?
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busdaddy
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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LOL!, that's hilarious! 
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cmonSTART
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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That's a game changer!
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
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Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Type IV Tune-up Tragedy |
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I lived in NC for seven years and a guy like that was known as "A good 'ol boy".
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Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
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SamboSamba22
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