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62 Dave
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Joined: August 31, 2012
Posts: 124
Location: SoCal
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 Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:11 pm Post subject: Intermittent start issue - good starter, solenoid & battery |
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I'm experiencing an intermittent starting issue, where when I turn the key, sometimes (most of the time now actually) I hear the solenoid clicking, but the starter doesn't engage.
The starter is new, and checks out good w/ a screwdriver across the solenoid terminals, as does the solenoid. I took the battery to my FLAPS today and it checks out good.
I had the same issue w/ my old starter, which recently gave up the ghost. The new one worked fine for a couple of starts, but the issue has come back. I did not replace the bushing, as it looks ok and from reading other threads here it sounds like a worn bushing causes slow cranking? Is that true?
I've tried pushing the car backwards in 3rd gear thinking the starter may be hung up on the ring gear. Doesn't seem to consistently help - every once in a while I'll get a start, but it does that on it's own with enough turns of the key.
Car is a 6 volt, all stock, with the Euro locking steering column ignition.
Any ideas/suggestions?
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Dave
62 Type 1 sunroof
64 Ghia hardtop
69 Type 1, 68 Type 1, 73 914 2.0, 76 911S Targa....all gone but not forgotten  |
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent start issue - good starter, solenoid & battery |
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| 62 Dave wrote: |
I'm experiencing an intermittent starting issue, where when I turn the key, sometimes (most of the time now actually) I hear the solenoid clicking, but the starter doesn't engage.
The starter is new, and checks out good w/ a screwdriver across the solenoid terminals, as does the solenoid. I took the battery to my FLAPS today and it checks out good.
I had the same issue w/ my old starter, which recently gave up the ghost. The new one worked fine for a couple of starts, but the issue has come back. I did not replace the bushing, as it looks ok and from reading other threads here it sounds like a worn bushing causes slow cranking? Is that true?
I've tried pushing the car backwards in 3rd gear thinking the starter may be hung up on the ring gear. Doesn't seem to consistently help - every once in a while I'll get a start, but it does that on it's own with enough turns of the key.
Car is a 6 volt, all stock, with the Euro locking steering column ignition.
Any ideas/suggestions? |
starter soliniod may click but the contacts you hear clicking may be dirty and thus preventing good current flow, you may also want to check you ground strap body to tranny and battery to body. high resistance in the ground straps can allow the low current solinoid to click, but prevent enough juice to flow to the starter.
put a voltmeter lead across the starter motor cable where it enters the starter from the soliniod and place other voltmenter lead (negative) on starter body, then try to crank motor, see if you get a full 6 volts there or not, if not, work back, checking for voltage drop across each point, the two ground straps, and across the solinoid. take reading while trying to crank.
my first guess seeing as you can repeatably start by shorting across the solinoid is that the solinoid has an intermittant failure, but then again dont discount bad grouns or othe connections. also make sure your getting a good full 6 volts to the solinoid, the key switch might have too much resistance, in which case one fix would be to add a relay for the solinoid. if your solinoid is clicking, but the voltage from the key switch is reduced, you may hear itclick, but it not a good firm conntact to test this put a voltmeter across the solinoid terminal from the key switch (skinny wire) and measure voltage when attmepting to crank, if it is low voltage, the the key switch or associated wires have a problem. adding a relay is a common fix, and can work very well if that is indeed the problem
if you open up the solinoid to lube and clean, besure to reseal the opening seam with some caulking (some thing like "form a gasket") you want the solinoid to be water tight from road spray.
good luck
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KTPhil 
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent start issue - good starter, solenoid & battery |
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| 62 Dave wrote: |
The starter is new, and checks out good w/ a screwdriver across the solenoid terminals, as does the solenoid. I took the battery to my FLAPS today and it checks out good.
Car is a 6 volt, all stock, with the Euro locking steering column ignition. |
I'd think about the contacts inside your ignition switch. Those were NLA for a long time but recently someone posted they are available again. |
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent start issue - good starter, solenoid & battery |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| 62 Dave wrote: |
The starter is new, and checks out good w/ a screwdriver across the solenoid terminals, as does the solenoid. I took the battery to my FLAPS today and it checks out good.
Car is a 6 volt, all stock, with the Euro locking steering column ignition. |
I'd think about the contacts inside your ignition switch. Those were NLA for a long time but recently someone posted they are available again. |
adding a relay can allow worn key switches to work if they are not completely shot, and a relay can greatly extend the life of any key switch. so even if the problem is something else, once that other thing is repaired, the addition of a starter relay is a good idea.
what you need to do to find the problematic componnents is check voltages or voltage drops across every componnent, including wires and ground straps. that will most certainly find the offending componnents you may have more than one marginal componnent, a volt drop on the ground strap, another colt dropped across the key switch, a rusty or dry of lube solinoid plunger that draws too much current, dirty solinoid contacts etc..., all can add up. so even if you find one problem componnet, continue checking, there is possibly a series of voltage drops causing problems when it all adds up, once fixed, add the relay to protect the key switch and provide more juice to the solinoid than even a new Bug provided.
good luck
ps if you have no idea how to do the voltage drop tests, reread my first post, if still need more info ask, we will try to help
now get that voltmeter out and find the bad
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Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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gt1953
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Joined: May 08, 2002
Posts: 13848
Location: White Mountains Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent start issue - good starter, solenoid & battery |
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Like mentioned the connections should nice and bright and shiny for the best possible connection in the 6 V system. Another thing to try is wiring the ignition switch externally for testing purposes. A push on switch and a toggle switch can be wired in easily. Its all about clean connections.
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Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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type1abody
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Joined: April 02, 2009
Posts: 40
Location: oregon
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent start issue - good starter, solenoid & battery |
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| Had basically the same issues, put up with the random click/no start, was getting worse. Got out my dremel and a new wire wheel. Cleaned everything, wires, fuseblock, terminals , etc. Has started everytime since then. 65, 6v |
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62 Dave
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Joined: August 31, 2012
Posts: 124
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Intermittent start issue - good starter, solenoid & battery |
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Thanks for the suggestions guys. I'll get out the voltmeter and the dremel and getting checking/cleaning. I'll keep you posted on what I find.
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Dave
62 Type 1 sunroof
64 Ghia hardtop
69 Type 1, 68 Type 1, 73 914 2.0, 76 911S Targa....all gone but not forgotten |
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Sharp64
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Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Intermittent start issue - good starter, solenoid & battery |
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Not sure I have any good suggestions, but curious as to what plays out with yours. I chased a starting gremlin for over 1.5 years. Did all the things above as well as soldering fuse panel, disassembling and cleaning up solenoid. Chased any drops and had over 6 volts at the starter and still wouldn't crank at times. Ended up changing out the starter about two weeks ago and haven't seen any more issues yet. Out of curiosity, did you get a rebuilt Bosch unit or a replacement? Ive seen a couple of threads with people complaining about being 2-3 starters in on a fix.
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gt1953
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002
Posts: 13848
Location: White Mountains Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent start issue - good starter, solenoid & battery |
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I have worn out several little dremel wire wheels. Be sure to disconnect the battery first!!
_________________
Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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61SNRF
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Joined: March 29, 2009
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Location: Whittier 90602
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62 Dave
Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2012
Posts: 124
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent start issue - good starter, solenoid & battery |
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Following up as to the fix to my issue - I was getting lower voltage at the starter, so I dremel cleaned the connectors, starting with those behind the dash, and worked back to the starter and ground straps, and she's starting like a champ every time now - yeah baby .
So thanks for the help gang.
And to answer the question about the starter, yes, mine is a Bosch rebuilt unit.
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Dave
62 Type 1 sunroof
64 Ghia hardtop
69 Type 1, 68 Type 1, 73 914 2.0, 76 911S Targa....all gone but not forgotten |
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type1abody
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2009
Posts: 40
Location: oregon
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent start issue - good starter, solenoid & battery |
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| Great news.! I forgot to mention that a week prior to taking a dremel to mine I did it to a buddies car that had the same issue. |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent start issue - good starter, solenoid & battery |
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Hi. I've been a proponent of voltage drop/loss testing since I learned how valuable the theory is. For the folks that don't believe me this is the gold standard today in auto electric diagnostics.
Approx 90% of this video applies to VW and it is interesting it includes a starter relay, which any purists fail to recognize its merits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMXENKujYtc |
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