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JCooper
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2015
Posts: 20
Location: United States
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 Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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I've been reading up on your post. I had began to run into a similar problem- though I had replaced my ECU with a used one. This whole forum sounds so familiar. I've been tracing out so many wiring gnomes from previous owner(s) that makes a guy shake his head. I am going to trace everything prior to plugging in my new ECU (which is one its way)- but with the randomness of my wiring harness I don't doubt a massive short could have been a key player to my ECUs death.
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lowslowauto
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:40 am Post subject: |
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I was told, he pulled the ECU out because the injectors were not registering any power, once he pulled it he could smell the burnt wires.  He did notice a few shoddy wires near the injectors as well that he was going to replace.
He said, after closer inspection the harness may be okay once he cleans those wires up in good news...I am wondering if my boosting etc. caused the short. I had the battery on a trickle, but because I couldn't get it running...I was often trickle charging/boosting the battery as I worked on it. Probably not the best idea...
You live and you learn |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34018
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| lowslowauto wrote: |
Sounds good Tram, I actually do have 1 extra in my spare parts pile. Will have them pop it in on Monday and see if that was the issue.
Has anyone had their ECU crap out? What was it caused by? A short? |
Based on what I read here and elsewhere, and observed in a few...
Failure modes include the output transistors, which run hot and are heat-sinked to the chassis. The heat transfer paste dries out and they can fail. This is the same failure mode of early transistor radios. Check the oldest Sapphire radios... they mounted the output transistor externally to keep it cool, and to allow for easy replacement when (not if) it fails.
Another failure mode is to reverse the polarity of jumper cables. VW goes overboard and says NEVER to jump start a FI car, but that is excessive caution. Some even dispute this failure mode, saying the ECU has diodes protecting form reverse polarity. I haven't checked schematics to see if this is true.
Water in the ECU can cause corrosion and cause both solder and component failure. With it on a fender exposed to the weather, it must be well sealed or it can rust or leak water inside.
A weak solder joint can fail from vibration, though these are usually culled out during the infant mortality stage.
More often, it is a flakey connection external to the ECU that was the original problem, and the mechanical disturbance of changing out the ECU fixes the connection, even if only temporarily.
I suppose careless fiddling with a VOM could inject a signal to the ECU that might cause damage, but since most sensors are resistors, the circuits are used to far more current that a VOM injects. |
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lowslowauto
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback-Update |
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So....Apparently both ECU's (the old one) and the used replacement had no injector pulse! He said they could have swapped a carb on but figured it wasn't my cup of tea...lol. He was right.
What are my next options? Find another ECU and hope it doesn't blow? Could it be something I am missing, and the shop is missing?
ANY HELP is appreciated! I want to drive it this summer! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback-Update |
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| lowslowauto wrote: |
So....Apparently both ECU's (the old one) and the used replacement had no injector pulse! He said they could have swapped a carb on but figured it wasn't my cup of tea...lol. He was right.
What are my next options? Find another ECU and hope it doesn't blow? Could it be something I am missing, and the shop is missing?
ANY HELP is appreciated! I want to drive it this summer! |
1. How did they ascertain that there are burned circuits inside of the ECU? In general. ...unless they have a benchtop input/output function tester for D-jet.....the only way to actually say there are burned circuits.....is to disassemble the ECU.....which is not easy to do and get it back together right unless you have done it seveal times.
2. All of these ECUs exude a burned ciruit smell when you pull off the gray cover and take a sniff of the opening. That smell is common to solder joints on FR4 type circuit board....plus parts of it get warm while its running.
3. The chances of two ECUs having the same issue....supposedly burned circuits with no injector output.......is zillions to 1.
Understand this.....
You will get "0" injector output........and no voltage reading of any kind at the injectors......if you get no trigger input.
The injectors are grounded all the time. They only get a + impulse to them.......AFTER they get trigger point impulse.
Its 100% common to not see any injector impulse or voltage. ...if your trigger points are dirty, have a bad ground or either channel feed wire being bad.
Also.....the grounds have to be perfect....so check the ground wire clusters on the case centerline under the plenum.
Also he injectors can get pulse from the ECU.....but if the grounds at the case centerline are bad or corroded....no injection.
Also if wires, grounds, plugs or trigger points are preventing an input trigger impulse to the ECU from just one channel....neither channel will fire. One circuit has to collapse before the field for the other circuit can arm.
One quick test...install the ECU....check all wires and plugs....turn on the key....and open the throttle all the way from inside the engine compartment. If you dont hear a series of clicks from the injectors.....its likely a ground problem. The throttle valve switch does not require the engine to be running or the trigger points to be moving.....to trigger injections. Ray
EDIT: also understand this......whoever this shop is where you took your car....mjust because they work on VWs.....does not mean that they have any real experience with D-jet.........also...even if they are up to date OBD 1 or 2 or later fuel injection experts........that knowledge will serve them about "0" with D-jet.
Outside of the fuel pump and delivery system......there is not one relational part in D-jet....to more moxern EFI systems.
I also dont understand from your post. ...why or how they would be looking for injector voltage output. Its not as simple as just putting a "noid" light on the injector of a later vehicle.
On later systems......most are bank fired.....all four injectors at one time.....and simply take their timing impulse from either the coil, crank angle sensor or distributor from a single wire.
D-jet had trigger points....in the distributor. ..underneath the ignition points....as was noted earlier by Donniestrickland. Mechanics.....vw or not.....who dont have d-jet experience....typically ignore or overlook these trigger points....or dont even know they are there. Without the trigger points......no injector output from the ECU. Ray |
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lowslowauto
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback-Update |
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| Quote: |
1. How did they ascertain that there are burned circuits inside of the ECU? In general. ...unless they have a benchtop input/output function tester for D-jet.....the only way to actually say there are burned circuits.....is to disassemble the ECU.....which is not easy to do and get it back together right unless you have done it seveal times.
2. All of these ECUs exude a burned ciruit smell when you pull off the gray cover and take a sniff of the opening. That smell is common to solder joints on FR4 type circuit board....plus parts of it get warm while its running.
3. The chances of two ECUs having the same issue....supposedly burned circuits with no injector output.......is zillions to 1.
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The shop is the only German Engineering shop in the city, and the Austrian owner is the one working on the car...stating he has LOTS of experience with these. To be fair, he has a few buses in there and beetles but this is the first T3 in a long time (I have only ever seen one other in Ontario).
I don't know if he took it apart or has a specific input/output tester for D-Jet but can definitely check when I pop by this coming week.
2 ECU's being on the fritz seems far fetched, and that was my original thought as well...its starting to sound like I would have more success tinkering with it myself.
---this is some great info...at least gives me something to talk to him about. So far it has been there 4 months...and has moved twice. With nothing fixed, other than swapping the ECU...and apparently testing at the injectors. [/quote] |
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lowslowauto
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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Here is what they have told me since giving them some of those ideas ray!
"the harness was checked wire by wire from Ecu to each of the sensors including the triggers under the distributor. The grounds under the intake also checked out ok"
Sounds all bogus to me! |
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lowslowauto
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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So it has been a good long while since I have been on here, and really since I have worked on the fastback. The last time I had looked at it, was when I towed it back from this shop for storage this past winter. It has really hit the backburner since we started family planning...but now we have an almost 1 yr old, and it is time to get back to work!
So....I get into it today...and I find an absolute gong show (or what I would think is a gong show) of work from a "shop."
They took a ton of stuff apart, cut wires, and left a paperclip in my ecu.
What would be your next step? Is this normal crap from a "shop"?
Where should I start!
Here are some pics:
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vwsquare2
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2016
Posts: 104
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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The Austrian expert reference reminds me of an experience I had nearly 40 years ago with my first Type 3. I had it tuned up at a garage that advertised as an "expert" in Mercedes and VW (BMW wasn't so much in the picture then). This shop was less expensive than the dealer and since I was a college student with little income, I decided to try him.
After the tuneup, the car was running rough on I95. I got to my future wife's house where her 16 year old brother who was in trade school offered to have a look. After a couple of minutes of looking he took the vacuum advance hose and reconnected it to the distributor's vacuum advance. The "expert" must have forgot to reattach it. Ran great after that.
Seeing how simple that was, I learned how to do my own oil changes and tune ups. Not an easy task in a time b/4 the internet but I found what I needed in the Library (for those that don't know what that is, Google it! :>) and bought a Haynes manual. Haven't had that issue since.
I do suggest you examine all of the grounds for the injectors that are under the air cleaner and be sure they are tight and clean. Also check if the other injector connectors are attached.
Probably useless to take it back to your Austrian expert but it couldn't hurt. He could have at least used a shiny paper clip! Those broken wires will need more than just to reconnect them with some electrical tape. Also, the plastic connectors will likely need adjustment or replacement. Others on the forum can describe it better but the pins in the connectors can get out of alignment so do not make good contact even when it seems the connector is fastened good and tight. Same is true for the connector to the trigger points at the bottom of the distributor.
You should check the Businesses tab that is under the Community tab at the top of the page. Under General Service/Repair you can look for other shops in Ontario. I saw about 1/2 a dozen shops though none may not be near you. I know Ontario is a big place but maybe you can find someone. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:37 am Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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I think we commented on this in this thread before. Whoever was working on your car has no business even touching it. They have no clue what they are doing.
While they may actually be good mechanics on modern cars....they are clueless hacks with regard to a VW type 3 in general and D-jet injection in specific.
Really...its time to start working on this yourself. The system has 23 wires...three sensors...and two electromechanical sensors (the trigger points and TVS).
The rules are cut and dried. WE can walk you through this...you just cannot cut corners.
Also...what the hell do they have a broken Differential pressure sensor laying in your car for (that item in your last picture)?
That is a differential pressure sensor used on the upstream and downstream of modern VW diesel cars exhaust particulate filter to measure input and output pressure to tell you when the filter is clogged. Its for Audi A3, and mk 5 and 6 Golf jetta and beetle with TDI.
Ray |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34018
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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While clearly a Type 3 car, that injector pair does NOT look like a Type 3 assembly. Type 4 maybe? And neither injector looks stock. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
While clearly a Type 3 car, that injector pair does NOT look like a Type 3 assembly. Type 4 maybe? And neither injector looks stock. |
Aw..SNAP...good catch! I did not even notice the picture. His type 3 intakes are in the picture behind the intake in the foreground.
The one in the foreground looks like a type 4 intake. The blue injector looks like the stock injector on a 1.8L with L-jet...EV-1/L-jet style plug. The yellow plug on the left....just the female plug is yellow. No idea what is underneath it. But yes...those injectors will not work with D-jet.
Ray |
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lowslowauto
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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| vwsquare2 wrote: |
Probably useless to take it back to your Austrian expert but it couldn't hurt. He could have at least used a shiny paper clip! Those broken wires will need more than just to reconnect them with some electrical tape. Also, the plastic connectors will likely need adjustment or replacement. Others on the forum can describe it better but the pins in the connectors can get out of alignment so do not make good contact even when it seems the connector is fastened good and tight. Same is true for the connector to the trigger points at the bottom of the distributor.
You should check the Businesses tab that is under the Community tab at the top of the page. Under General Service/Repair you can look for other shops in Ontario. I saw about 1/2 a dozen shops though none may not be near you. I know Ontario is a big place but maybe you can find someone. |
Thanks for the advice! Glad to hear I haven't been the only one taken by the "experienced European mechanic." Although your scenario seems a lot less obtrusive than mine.  Since it has been sitting I am starting at the basics all over again...Drain fluid, new battery, ...etc. Hopefully , I can just use my manual and go through each proper step. |
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lowslowauto
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
I think we commented on this in this thread before. Whoever was working on your car has no business even touching it. They have no clue what they are doing.
While they may actually be good mechanics on modern cars....they are clueless hacks with regard to a VW type 3 in general and D-jet injection in specific. |
I don't disagree Ray! I think I was on the right track before I sent it there, going through all of the steps you guys mentioned...but then ran out of time, and without a garage needed it somewhere for the winter...so this seemed logical. Apparently not.
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Really...its time to start working on this yourself. The system has 23 wires...three sensors...and two electromechanical sensors (the trigger points and TVS).
The rules are cut and dried. WE can walk you through this...you just cannot cut corners. |
Totally! I always value everyone's advice on here. We have a small group of air cooled people here in London (more in Toronto) but everyone is pretty deep into buses or beetles, not a type 3...and definitely not the odd ball 73 FI one.
I am down to start right from the beginning again (seeing as it has been sitting). Here is my first steps all over again: Drain the fluid, new battery, replace the vacuum lines, fuel lines, clean all of the grounds, replace any cracked wires....etc. Adjust the valves, check the plugs, points...and finally the trigger points (those are the only thing I haven't checked in the last two years)
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Also...what the hell do they have a broken Differential pressure sensor laying in your car for (that item in your last picture)?
That is a differential pressure sensor used on the upstream and downstream of modern VW diesel cars exhaust particulate filter to measure input and output pressure to tell you when the filter is clogged. Its for Audi A3, and mk 5 and 6 Golf jetta and beetle with TDI.
Ray |
Weird right....to be fair they did leave someone else's receipt and info int he car today...so I wouldn't put it past them to have just left crap in there. |
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lowslowauto
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
While clearly a Type 3 car, that injector pair does NOT look like a Type 3 assembly. Type 4 maybe? And neither injector looks stock.
Aw..SNAP...good catch! I did not even notice the picture. His type 3 intakes are in the picture behind the intake in the foreground.
The one in the foreground looks like a type 4 intake. The blue injector looks like the stock injector on a 1.8L with L-jet...EV-1/L-jet style plug. The yellow plug on the left....just the female plug is yellow. No idea what is underneath it. But yes...those injectors will not work with D-jet.
Ray |
I'm wondering if they had tied it into the car to test the injector plugs...?
Would you guys connect with this shop? Like is the crap they left and did way outside the realm of a professional place? |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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| lowslowauto wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
While clearly a Type 3 car, that injector pair does NOT look like a Type 3 assembly. Type 4 maybe? And neither injector looks stock.
Aw..SNAP...good catch! I did not even notice the picture. His type 3 intakes are in the picture behind the intake in the foreground.
The one in the foreground looks like a type 4 intake. The blue injector looks like the stock injector on a 1.8L with L-jet...EV-1/L-jet style plug. The yellow plug on the left....just the female plug is yellow. No idea what is underneath it. But yes...those injectors will not work with D-jet.
Ray |
I'm wondering if they had tied it into the car to test the injector plugs...?
Would you guys connect with this shop? Like is the crap they left and did way outside the realm of a professional place? |
I sure wouldn't let them work on my FI type 3. Their approach to repair/testing isn't very professional.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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lowslowauto
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
I sure wouldn't let them work on my FI type 3. Their approach to repair/testing isn't very professional. |
My thoughts exactly! But is it worth connecting with them again about it? Or connecting online etc? |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:20 am Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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| lowslowauto wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
I sure wouldn't let them work on my FI type 3. Their approach to repair/testing isn't very professional. |
My thoughts exactly! But is it worth connecting with them again about it? Or connecting online etc? |
That's your call. If you paid them to fix it, then maybe I'd go visit them and see about getting a refund. But, if no money was exchanged, I'd probably just let it go, and work on it myself (consider it storage damage).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| lowslowauto wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
I sure wouldn't let them work on my FI type 3. Their approach to repair/testing isn't very professional. |
My thoughts exactly! But is it worth connecting with them again about it? Or connecting online etc? |
That's your call. If you paid them to fix it, then maybe I'd go visit them and see about getting a refund. But, if no money was exchanged, I'd probably just let it go, and work on it myself (consider it storage damage). |
I agree!
If there was money exchanged.....and you can't get it back.....and you decide to give them another shot....ask them what the steps of their test plan is.....and post it here and we can tell you straight away if they hage any idea what they are doing. Ray |
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lowslowauto
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2008
Posts: 425
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Sluggish 73 FI Fastback |
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Money was exchanged...$300 Cdn. But at this point, I am just going to put the work in myself. It makes more sense.
I have already got it back to where it should be (taken all of the weird watercooled bits off), and will now go through Vaccuum and Gas Lines again. |
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