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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:04 pm Post subject: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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Hi all.
While test driving my "new" Alpine stereo and amp, with the stereo volume up high, headlights on, as I pulled the wiper washer stalk, the headlight switch started smoking. Good times.
As per the instructions, I connected the Alpine "dim display" connection to the Vanagon dash light circuit.
Could the Alpine dimmer circuit cause the dimmer and/or headlight switch to heat up and smoke?
I will double check the fuses but I don't see any blown. Stereo is connected with a fuse to the 30 buss.
I'm looking at other causes but this is the only one that makes sense right now.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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atomatom Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012 Posts: 1867 Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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i can't think of a less fun time to have that happen, needing wipers, dark, etc. hopefully your lights at least kept on.
i suppose you could measure the power draw on the dimmer wire, but it sounds like something found a ground to short on and started heating up the wire.
you could add another relay that is triggered by the switch. then send the power from that relay to the dimmer input. it would at least isolate it.
did it the dimmer function work before you pulled the wiper arm? _________________ 84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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atomatom Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012 Posts: 1867 Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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i had a similar moment of panic on the ferry when i lost all power while trying to get off the ferry. i wiggled keys, cursed, and when it lit up, gunned it. blargh. now i need to go check the ignition switch - i think i need to put the starter relay back in. _________________ 84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
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syncrodoka Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005 Posts: 11998 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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I would double triple check how you wired the deck. I have 2 Sony and 2 alpine decks wired into the grey/blue illumination wires without issue. |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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Thanks Atomatom and Syncrodoka.
Atomatom: I was actually driving into full sunset sunlight so a smudged windshield sure was helpful. LOL. While testing, the stereo functioned fine and the display would dim when headlight switch turned on. But this was with key out of ignition so only parking lights came on during testing. The wires to headlight switch look fine. I'll ring out the dimmer on it. See if that's what fried.
Syncrodoka: Ok. Sure sounds like something else is kinky. I had the fuse panel down several times recently, the relays out and a head light "upgrade" relay 87 wire disconnected. At first I thought maybe I'd inserted relays in wrong position but that's not possible in my case. I'll double check my wiring. I did note in another post about melting insulators at supply wires to back side of the fuse panel. Since this happened to the OEM 30 supply wire, I'd assumed the recent deformation of these insulators is normal wear and tear but it does make me curious if the 30 buss of the panel isn't overloaded at times. I don't think it's related but I may have to remove all wires to the panel and have a close look. More good times!
My first reaction was that something with the X circuit went sideways or some arcane detail with the dash light circuit became faulty after connecting the Alpine "dim" wire. (circuit)
All of this certainly speaks highly to installing battery disconnect switches.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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So the headlight dimmer was badly burned and completely failed. To the point that the rotary wheel did not easily turn. As I turned that wheel, a piece of wire fell out.
I found ground faults at 58b dash light wire but then realized I had to remove the bulbs. Bulbs out (including defog switch), no continuity. So far.....
No shorts to ground at:
- blue white 58b wires. (Alpine display dim wire connected to a 58b wire)
- X wire at headlight switch
- 30 wires to headlight switch
I inspected inside the wiper relay. No obvious faults. (I had repaired solder joints on it a few years ago) I doubt the washer pump motor or wiring is at fault but will check that later. The burning seemed to coincide with use of the washer motor.
On my van, there are blue/white 58b wires to the emergency flasher and defog switches. I don't see that in the diagrams.
The Alpine deck and amp are connected to backside of fuse S7. At first I thought maybe the HU/amp were pulling power through the dimmer circuit on headlight switch but that's not the case. Regardless, diagram of how things are now. If anyone sees flaws, please advise.
So far, I'm stumped.
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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So with all due respect to syncrodoka.....
Reading further, it seems that connecting a head unit "dimmer" wire to a dash light circuit controlled by an analogue dimmer rheostat may be incorrect. I'm not clear on the details but have read comments about the HU pulling too much current through the dimmer rheostat causing it, or a fuse, to fail. Especially if the dimmer is at it's lowest setting.
The "dimmer" wire in a modern head unit (typically orange it seems) senses when 12V is present. e.g. when parking lights are on. When it senses 12V, it dims the HU display lights by a preset amount.
I'll double check my HU wiring though.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7892 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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I, personally, have never connected the illumination (misnomer; should be called dimmer) wire. In fact, I've pulled that wire out of every harness (along with the power antenna wire) of all 3 brands of head units I've installed.
Found this via Google:
An illumination wire simply lets the head unit detect when your headlights are on. When voltage is detected on the wire, the unit will dim the display so that it doesn't hurt your night vision. It is NOT for turning on the radio display lights, and it does NOT allow you to adjust the head unit display using the vehicle dimmer switch. It just dims the display when your lights turn on. The factory radio harness usually contains one or more illumination wires. You can test for it using a multimeter. A true illumination wire will show 12 volts with the parking lights on, and 0 volts with the lights off; it won't vary with the dimmer switch. You may find a "dimmer" wire, which will show voltage with the parking lights on, but the voltage will vary as you adjust the switch.
Thus, if you wish to keep the auto dimming feature, you need to wire it into the headlight side of the switch, not the dash light side of the switch. _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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kamzcab86 wrote: |
Thus, if you wish to keep the auto dimming feature, you need to wire it into the headlight side of the switch, not the dash light side of the switch. |
Thanks Kamz. Yes. Totally agree and understood; I'd found similar reading online too. I now see that mistake in how I connected the HU. Regardless.....
I'm still ringing things out etc. to see if there is-was a fault elsewhere but failing that, would like to determine for sure either way if the HU auto dimming circuitry and components were the cause. e.g. did the HU auto dimming circuitry provide a path to ground to the positive side of the Vanagon dimmer rheostat or, if my Vanagon dimmer rheostat happened to be at its' lowest setting (highest resistance) when the "magic smoke" was released, at that time was the HU auto dimming circuitry sensing a low voltage then trying to "pull" 12V? But that stuff is beyond my scope of knowledge.
Over the years, I've modified the wiring at the fuse panel, instrument cluster etc. so what really bugs me is that there's now an intermittent fault somewhere in my old work, or the OEM work.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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Searched more and so far, these two posts on a honda civic forum, in particular the one containing the word "smoke"
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/21-i-c-e-electr...ost4224378
https://www.civicforums.com/forums/21-i-c-e-electr...ost4438330
appear to verify that my Vanagon dash light dimmer rheostat failed because it was incorrectly connected to the head unit orange "dimmer" wire. i.e. the failure isn't due to previous work, OEM wiring or the switch itself.
Thankfully, I'm sure I can just bypass the rheostat portion of the Vanagon headlight switch and continue using the switch. I may only have one other used spare.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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buspor63 Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2005 Posts: 1179 Location: Knoxville,TN Where America stops for gas
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:32 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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Great news that you've found the problem. Since Bosch doesn't make the part, you may need some of this Lucas replacement smoke though.
_________________ Imagine that, theres not an "h" in either Westfalia or Syncro? |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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buspor63 wrote: |
Great news that you've found the problem. Since Bosch doesn't make the part, you may need some of this Lucas replacement smoke though. |
I sure as heck hope the way I connected the Alpine harness was the only fault.
Ha ha. Yes. My jar of Lucas Smoke on order. Re installing it is another matter. Hydraulic press?
Seriously though, its unnerving, and somewhat surreal, to see smoke come out of the dash. I'm going to measure what is at the Alpine orange "dimmer" wire. I'm also still tempted to find an old potentiometer or low Amp fuse and see if I can't re create the fault.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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So one other theory is that prior to road testing this stereo, while hastily "throwing in" my custom prototype whiz bang speaker cabinet at dash, doing so pulled down on the Alpine harness causing the fresh air fan light bulb and holder to come loose and short out. The contacts on that holder are exposed. When checking the wiring, that bulb appeared to be loose from the socket. The dim feature on the stereo did work when tested briefly before driving.
Of note, VW started fusing the dash lights in later model years. I think this started in 1985.
Neil.
Though this is a kludge, it will work out fine. The only time I use the dimmer is when the headlights are on during the day; I'd dim the dash lights to save the bulbs. A piece of #14 solid wire soldered between 58 and 58b.
edit: if you bypass a damaged dimmer rheostat in this or a similar manner on a pre 1985 Vanagon (or Vanagon that has no fuse on this circuit), install a fuse on the 58b circuit!!!!!
Headlight apart. Dimmer rheostat totally fried. It had to have been a dead short to ground; you can see the blob on one end of a wire. For those curious, the wiper shown runs along the wires in a similar manner as the tuner on your old crystal radio.
here's the headlight switch in pieces.
I noticed that the X contact thing was sitting lower than the other two contacts. I adjusted the spring to bring the contact thing closer to the height of the other two.
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN
Last edited by Vanagon Nut on Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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Vanagon Nut wrote: |
.......I'm going to measure what is at the Alpine orange "dimmer" wire. I'm also still tempted to find an old potentiometer or low Amp fuse and see if I can't re create the fault.
Neil. |
So with the Alpine stereo on I measured between the Alpine orange "auto dim" wire and frame for continuity to ground. Nothing. With meter set to 200 mA I saw 0.4 mA. Hope I'm reading that correctly. Regardless, super super low current draw.
The blue/white wire at fresh air fan light must've shorted to ground.
Sorry for all the posts, thanks for your help.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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shagginwagon83 Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016 Posts: 3786 Location: VA/TN
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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Don't apologize for the posts! They're interesting to me as I am currently dealing with the headlight switch.
I am in the adventures of the dash removal and have investigated some wiring issues.
On the headlight switch, the 'scroll' wheel there are two wires. Not the outside wire, but the inside one (I think 58 maybe 56) that hooks up straight to 12v was actually just a wire pushed up into the socket! I ended up replacing the wire and the connector but I am getting maybe 1v difference while scrolling. I plan on putting the dash back in soon, hopefully thats normal! _________________ Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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shagginwagon83 wrote: |
Don't apologize for the posts! They're interesting to me as I am currently dealing with the headlight switch.
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well in that case.....
Basically, for most or all Vanagon headlight switches, when the switch is toggled from off to parking light position, 30 constant positive is switched to 58 and at the same time, via the rheostat dimmer, positive is connected to 58b then out to the dash lights. As a side note, to my aging eyes, in the Digijet diagrams, if you don't look closely, it appears that 30 positive bypasses the rheostat and connects straight to 58b which of course is not true.
Since my dimmer was toast, I did a very rough measurement of the thin wire on the rheostat. I saw 3.5' - 4' So if it was, say, #28 gauge wire, an online calculator suggests that wire is 0.25 Ohms. I don't know if you were curious about the voltage drop across the rheostat.
I had no real idea of how the switch worked so found it quite interesting to open it up for repair. e.g. how the center tap on that rheostat is saddled up against pin 58b.
Neil.
Close up of dimmer rheostat wiper. The peg on the wheel fits in the slot on arm and the goofy looking wiper rides on the wire winds.
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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This just occurred to me.
I doubt anyone else would bypass their dash light dimmer rheostat but if you do so on a pre 1985 Vanagon.....
FUSE THAT 58B DASH LIGHT CIRCUIT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Given the gauge of wire I soldered in, if the circuit ever shorts out again, the wires would be the fuse. VERY dangerous!
Last winter, I trouble shot a buddies dash light issue (none working, fuse would blow). A blue-white wire 58b wire had fallen loose and would short, or not, to dash metal. As far as I can see, 1985 is when VW started fusing that 58b circuit. The way that part of the circuit is routed, a positive lead can fall off and rest directly on the metal dash material or other grounded metal.
Between people working on the dash, say installing a stereo, and time takes its' toll, there's at least two places that wire can fall off and short out. Cigarette lighter bulb, fresh air control display bulb. And of course on Vanagons with the tiny map light at passenger side, replacing the bulb can be a fuse blowing event.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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shagginwagon83 Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016 Posts: 3786 Location: VA/TN
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Between people working on the dash, say installing a stereo, and time takes its' toll, there's at least two places that wire can fall off and short out. Cigarette lighter bulb, fresh air control display bulb. And of course on Vanagons with the tiny map light at passenger side, replacing the bulb can be a fuse blowing event.
Neil. |
Funny thing you say this as I put my dash in today! Everything went well...some minor issues here and there. But towards the end I was messing with the radio installation and shorted a fuse. It very well could be the fresh air control bulb because it was broke and had that wire hanging/exposed. I should not have did that. _________________ Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight switch smoke caused by stereo "dim display"? |
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shagginwagon83 wrote: |
Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Between people working on the dash, say installing a stereo, and time takes its' toll, there's at least two places that wire can fall off and short out. Cigarette lighter bulb, fresh air control display bulb. And of course on Vanagons with the tiny map light at passenger side, replacing the bulb can be a fuse blowing event.
Neil. |
Funny thing you say this as I put my dash in today! Everything went well...some minor issues here and there. But towards the end I was messing with the radio installation and shorted a fuse. It very well could be the fresh air control bulb because it was broke and had that wire hanging/exposed. I should not have did that. |
Congrats on getting the dash back on. Ya, I've done that kind of thing too with the map light on my '88.
It's unlikely you shorted out a 58b circuit wire to ground. On your '83 I'm 99% sure the dash light circuit is NOT fused. It's possible something went hinky with the cigarette lighter socket wiring. IIRC, I've even had a new cig lighter socket short out. I now have a dual USB outlet there.
I think this is the part.
https://www.amazon.com/BlueFire-Charger-Socket-Outlet-Voltmeter/dp/B01F3I117E
for sure looks like this. Just had to file out the hole a bit. Easy fit. Display is small but still useful though.
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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