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Complete axle replacement
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Envious
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:21 pm    Post subject: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

Can anybody point me to a vendor for a complete axle replacement for a 71 411 with a manual box? I found this on CIP1 but it's listed for a 74 Thing. I know that there were a lot of similarities but didn't know if it was a direct replacement.
http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13-90-6905
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71 Type 1302 Custom
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=388225


Last edited by Envious on Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

So you mean a 1974....412.....with manual gearbox right? : Wink

Let me look in the book a little later for axle length and part # and CV joint part number.

That will be important. Also.....are you missing an axle assembly.....or was one destroyed or rusted in some way?

It may be cheaper and easier to get the right parts by simply rebuilding what you have. Ray
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Envious
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
So you mean a 1974....412.....with manual gearbox right? : Wink

Let me look in the book a little later for axle length and part # and CV joint part number.

That will be important. Also.....are you missing an axle assembly.....or was one destroyed or rusted in some way?

It may be cheaper and easier to get the right parts by simply rebuilding what you have. Ray

It's a 411; not a 412. The complete axle assembly in the link is waaaay cheaper than the individual parts without the mess of rebuilding it myself. That's why I'm inquiring.
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71 Type 1302 Custom
64 Type 151
63 Type 117 L469 Anthracite
64 Type 361 L575 Nutria
64 Porsche 356c
56 Type 113 L227 Strato Silver
52 BSA C11G
59 Heilite Single Wheel Camping Trailer
56 Allstate Single Wheel
84 Vanagon Westfalia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=388225
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

Envious wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
So you mean a 1974....412.....with manual gearbox right? : Wink

Let me look in the book a little later for axle length and part # and CV joint part number.

That will be important. Also.....are you missing an axle assembly.....or was one destroyed or rusted in some way?

It may be cheaper and easier to get the right parts by simply rebuilding what you have. Ray

It's a 411; not a 412. The complete axle assembly in the link is waaaay cheaper than the individual parts without the mess of rebuilding it myself. That's why I'm inquiring.


Then its not a 1974. There were no 411 built anywhere for any market after August of 1972.

Post a picture of your car. That will settle it instantly! Wink

You will need to check your VIN # but according to the the book the drive shaft length(s) were as follows:

435mm (17"+1/8th") from start of production to chassis # 419 100 000
Part# 411 501 211

429.5mm (16" + 29/32") from chassis # 410 2000 001 to chassis # 412 2052 251
Part # 411 501 211A

429.5mm (16"+ 29/32") from chassis # 412 2052 251
Part # 411 501 211 B

I think the difference in the last two had to do with the spline length and use or non use of the bellville spring washer or not.

But the concave dished bellville washer is listed for all models in the book. Part # 113 501 327

The CV joint:
Part # 113 501 331 to chassis # 419 100 000

Part # 113 501 331 A from chassis # 410 2000 001

The size of the CV flange is worth noting as well. The inners and outers are the same size but there were different sizes early and late.

Outer CV flange 411 501 321A start of production to chassis # 419 100 000
And 411 501 321 B from chassis # 410 2000 001.

Also...unless these are known ti be correct shafts, properly reconditioned and using well made German joints like Lobro......the small mess of rebuilding known quality shafts is small compared the pain of the crap parts quality that is out there.
Ray
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Envious
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

Typo. It's a 71.
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63 Type 117 L469 Anthracite
64 Type 361 L575 Nutria
64 Porsche 356c
56 Type 113 L227 Strato Silver
52 BSA C11G
59 Heilite Single Wheel Camping Trailer
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=388225
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

Cool! Post pictures anyway please!

Love to see it.

So.....from all the books, the CV joint from the 411/412 and the CV boot....were also used on the type 181/VW thing.

However I am not sure about the shaft length. You need to verify from parts books in the archive that the type 181 used the same axle shaft part number. If it did and the letter code is the same.....then it should be the same for 411.

The CV joints themselves must be the corect part # as already mentioned. Ray
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titan3c
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

This brings up a question that is bothering me a little. When I replaced a CV joint I didn't use the spring-washer. in fact I don't think there was one on the shaft when removing the old CV joint. Is that bad, good, or indifferent?

Also I installed a EMPI 98-5084-B CV Joint. It has the 3/4inch balls. Is that OK with the other joint with 1/2inch balls? I used this joint to assure the proper angularity. Just a point I have wondered about. Bob
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
This brings up a question that is bothering me a little. When I replaced a CV joint I didn't use the spring-washer. in fact I don't think there was one on the shaft when removing the old CV joint. Is that bad, good, or indifferent?

Also I installed a EMPI 98-5084-B CV Joint. It has the 3/4inch balls. Is that OK with the other joint with 1/2inch balls? I used this joint to assure the proper angularity. Just a point I have wondered about. Bob


I dont know if the larger balls is a problem or not. I will have to pull up the sheets for the different part #s to see what the angle range is of each joint.

But.....I would assume that when going from 1/2" to 3/4".....with the same outer joint diameter. ....either the outer ring, the hub or both must be thinner. Our cars being pretty light..... ..not sure its an issue.

As for the dished washer.....there were notes in various threads possibly in the bus forum....about later part #s deleting the dished washer. I don't remember if it was definitive that the dished washer was deleted because the part changed and it was no longer needed or if it was just decided it was not needed. I think I remember reading that some later replacement joints came with a thicker boss and the dished washer was not needed.

Vague memory that there was also possibly a technical service bulletin about this from VW.

One thing that has been discussed ...again....do not know the final outcome/ general wisdom that resulted from the discussions. ......about not having the dished washer and allowing the center hub to slide that minute amount on the splines.

Regardless of the conclusion of the masses on that last item.....I do not believe the CV joint should be allowed to slip on the splines. I say this because I have worked on too many....that have been driven without the dished washer....and needed them.

What it resulted in was the small in and out movement wore the splines over time allowing the fit of the joint on the splines to be loose and sloppy. What this causes.....is take up slamming of the shaft splines against the joint splines.....causing very fine cracking which destroys the splines.

The other thing I have seen in about 50% of the shafts with no dished washer which allows the joint to move laterally......is that repeated hammering of the joint against the snap ring......wallows out the snap ring groove. The snap ring pops off.....and if its the outer wheel end of the shaft snap ring.....the extra shaft movement allows the shaft to move inward and hammer the cap in the center of the inner CV hub and it causes it to leak.

I will dig up what I can. The problem I see is that many times. ...aftermarket joint kits in the past.....were not very precise on their sourcing of the dished washer. These washers are bellville springs. Buying one that is even a handful of thousandths too thick or thin...changes the compression required ro install the dished washer....sometimes by 50 ft lbs of pressure. Many people have a problem installing them without a press.

EDIT:

Richard Atwell has good basic information about how to tell which direction the joints should install...and his information regarding the dished washer is similar to mine. http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FAQ/FAQContent.html

There is a reason for it to be there. As things changed...VW may have decided "they" no longer needed to install it. However if spacing between joint and snap ring shows that you need something to take up the space....use the dished washer...even if you need to modify it by lapping the outer periphery of the concave side to get a better fit that does not take tons of force to install.

By the way...I disagree with the theory that VW may have removed the spring washer because it kept popping the snap ring off. Totally unrelated issues.

Snap rings like this routinely hold axial tension far in excess of a bellville washer...for EON's. The problems I have seen are poor quality kit replacement snap rings...meaning size/thickness was not critically controlled, also reusing old snap rings that are "sprung" or warped or loose.....all contribute to wallow out the snap ring groove making it not sharp enough of a ledge to hold the snap ring.....and under those conditions...sure...teh spring washer can pop the snap ring off.

This is old school...but the proper course of action when the snap ring ledge seems a little worn or bald....is to mount the bare axle in something that allows it to roll concentrically...and carefully clean up and deepen the snap ring groove with a precision file to make it clean an sharp.

Then....go down and source a tighter snap ring so it fits properly. Ray


Ray
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titan3c
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

OK---thank you, I'm thinking it might be a good idea if I remove the shaft, and check-out what's going on. I remember I was having a hard time trying to decide which side goes to the shaft etc. Also I remember I accidentally caused the joint to come apart with the balls rolling around on the bench. I managed to reassemble the joint, but there was a few unanswered questions in my mind that I couldn't find answers to. Also it might be a good idea to replace both joints while I'm at it.

Also your comments about the spring washer make me think it would be a good idea to use them If necessary I'll go to a shop to compress the joint down to allow for the clip. Bob
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perello
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:02 am    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:

So.....from all the books, the CV joint from the 411/412 and the CV boot....were also used on the type 181/VW thing.


Somebody can confirm this?

I am on the market for 181 CV joints and I found Loebro for 411 (100mm diameter, 34mm wide, 33 splines )

What worries me is the max angle those CV's can take

cheers
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

perello wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:

So.....from all the books, the CV joint from the 411/412 and the CV boot....were also used on the type 181/VW thing.


Somebody can confirm this?

I am on the market for 181 CV joints and I found Loebro for 411 (100mm diameter, 34mm wide, 33 splines )

What worries me is the max angle those CV's can take

cheers


Confirm?......hard to do. After a certain point in time....VW 411/412 replacement joints carried the same part # as type 181. Whether that was an upgraded 411/412 joint that just happened to be used on the type 181....or vice versa.....I do not know.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13-86-1086-D

Here is the boot kit itself.....fits bus, vanagon and VW thing

The joint itself is part # 113 501 331 D according to German supply and other sources

https://www.germansupply.com/home/customer/product.php?productid=16448&cat=256&page=1

From the without guesswork book that I have which is 1971 to 1974 and does not list VW thing....but lists type 4 cars.....the type 4 cars use 113 501 331 A which is the same outside dimension, bolt pattern, thickness and spline size. The type 4 joint has a 17.46mm ball diameter

So yes....the 331 D and 331 A joints will interchange....but.....the "thing speciifc" 331D joints have a wider range of rotation....and so did the 411 and 412.

The 411/412 joint had 22° of rotation while bus joints with the same ball diameter (211 501 331 A) only had 19mm. Both of these joints bolt up and fit but the bus joint had an outer diameter difference of 0.1mm....which was a chamfer at the grease cap.

The 411/412 joint is a high rotation joint. When I search 113 501 331 D.....I also see listongs of it for 411/412 AND for VW thing.

The "D" letter code appears to be a later upgrade or parts consopidation that does not appear in my 411/412 parts book.

So...we know it fits the VW thing and has more rotation than a bus joint. What I do not know is what the required joint angle rotation is for VW type 181.

Lastly....if you look in the technical section on the Samba under Vw thing....you will find the parts book for the type 181. It lists the CV joint part # as 113 501 331 D.

So....whether the 331 A and 331 D are functionally identical..or whether the 411/412 are simply able to use the later 331D from the thing.....so VW just used them accross the board...I do not know. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:19 am    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

thanks ray!

actually I am looking to reference 411 598 101 A, thats a Löbro 302256

22 degrees is what I am looking for.

cheers
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

Trying to dig up an axle for this beast. It's a 2-door wagon variant, the VIN is 462 2024 240... where does that fit into this whole mess?

Thanks anyone,
Loren
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

lofoxx wrote:
Trying to dig up an axle for this beast. It's a 2-door wagon variant, the VIN is 462 2024 240... where does that fit into this whole mess?

Thanks anyone,
Loren


Technically....all the same chassis. If its type 4...the only difference should be manual to automatic and not 2 door, 4 door or wagon. Give me till the am and I will check the book to be sure. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

Right on, thanks Ray... what I actually need is the rear axle/cv shafts left and right. I'll do some searching.

Thanks!
Loren
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

There are three axles listed in my book. Its possible there may have been one after my book date in 1974 and early 1975 but I doubt it.

411 501 211--435mm or 17"-1/8" Used to chassis # 419 100 000

411 501 211 A--429.5mm or 16"-29/32" Used FROM chassis #410 2000 001 UP TO chassis # 412 2052 251

411 501 211 B--429.5mm or 16"-29/32" Used FROM chassis #412 2052 251 ONWARD.
I do not know what the difference is in the "B" part #. I will have to check my other books.

The prefix "462" in your chassis # marks this as a RHD drive variant/wagon "L" version. But....one thing not clear with this prefix model code....is that it does not say if its a 411 or 412 or what year.

Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

This one's a 72 411.

Thanks!
Loren
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

so... attempting to close the loop on this.

Bought a pair of these:
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1972/volkswagen/411/driveshaft_-ar-_axle/axle_assembly.html

Just as an FYI for the next guy, they're small. The ones I need are 17" wide with a 12.5" axle shaft... not sure where I'd find that, and the site I used doesn't have dimensions (of course).
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

lofoxx wrote:
so... attempting to close the loop on this.

Bought a pair of these:
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1972/volkswagen/411/driveshaft_-ar-_axle/axle_assembly.html

Just as an FYI for the next guy, they're small. The ones I need are 17" wide with a 12.5" axle shaft... not sure where I'd find that, and the site I used doesn't have dimensions (of course).


If the joints are correct part # and have the rigjt dimensions and spline size....just swap them to your existing shafts.
Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Complete axle replacement Reply with quote

good point. I'll give that a shot...
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