| Author |
Message |
waftheixmechanic
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2017
Posts: 5
Location: Redford, Mi.
|
 Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:50 pm Post subject: Vanagon rad fan wiring melt down, runs all the time |
 |
|
Hello, I'm in need of some advice and or help. My problem is a 1988 Vanagon Westfalia, water cooled with A/C. I'm working on my friends Vanagon, the rad fan runs all the time (at least until the battery is dead.)
I've tried all the suggestion on the sight, with out any luck.I disconected every connection that is in the rad fan a/c electrical systems, and the fan still runs. Some of the components have seen some heat from what appears to be a short to start with. But i'm still digging. I have with the help of a factory electrical shop manual, bently manual and the info I've gathered on this site come to idea that one of the fan power leads fused/ burned itself onto another 12 volt feed. I'm attaching some photo's of the over heated/ burnt components. Any and all advice, ideas would be greatly appreciated!
Bill Ferguson
A van & car lover
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon rad fan wiring melt down, runs all the time |
|
|
Is it possible that the switch in the radiator has malfunctioned. Pull the terminals on the switch and see if the fan stops. If not then I would suspect the fan motor and/or wiring.
Aloha
tp |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
waftheixmechanic
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2017
Posts: 5
Location: Redford, Mi.
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon rad fan wiring melt down, runs all the time |
|
|
| Tom Powell wrote: |
Is it possible that the switch in the radiator has malfunctioned. Pull the terminals on the switch and see if the fan stops. If not then I would suspect the fan motor and/or wiring.
Aloha
tp |
Tom, I tried that already. After looking through this site, I found that the high speed fan relay should be rated at 70 amps. The one in van ( also in the picture - which shows signs of heat on #87 post of the relay - fan side) is rated at 40 amps. Let me give you some background on what led up to this electrical meltdown. My friend was driving home to the Chicago area from Moline Il. They had turned on the A/C shortly after starting for home. When they returned home the fan was still running on high. Nothing out of the ordinary for a hot humid day. The next day the van wouldn't start. Reason fan will not turn off. Also my friend was advised to not drive over 60mph , but was running at at about 70 with A/C on. Would driving approximately 170 miles ( x - 2 ) with A/C on cause this kind of meltdown? The Van has been relatively trouble free since purchase, about 2 years ago. A few long excursions. I'm still looking into the cause - melted wires, connectors and blown 50 amp fuse. Any thoughts would greatly be appreciated!No other fuses are blown, so it is in the high speed fan system. I have not spent enough time on this problem yet. But I think I'm on the right track.
_________________
Bill Ferguson
1989 Westy
Freinds westy but I'm his friend/ mechanic |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7916
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon rad fan wiring melt down, runs all the time |
|
|
So that you know what you're looking at:
Refer to Bentley Manual pages 97.142 - 97.145. On pages 97.144-97.145, you'll see how/where the radiator cooling fan ties into the A/C system. All of what you see in ^that photo is for the A/C system. While the radiator fan is wired into the A/C system, its electrical components are at the front of the van. Not a simple system by any stretch... 
_________________
~Kamz 
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32586
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kourt
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1940
Location: Austin, TX
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:41 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon rad fan wiring melt down, runs all the time |
|
|
Getting the fan to stop running should involve one of three things:
-pulling fuse #1 in the fuse box (30A fuse, for Stage 2 fan)
-pulling relay #5 in the fuse box (sometimes labeled 53, for Stage 2 fan)
-removing the lower grille and unplugging the wiring loom for the temperature sensor/switch in the radiator (Stage 1/3 fans)
Working in the guts in the D pillar, as you have pictured, is not related to the radiator fan.
kourt |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
waftheixmechanic
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2017
Posts: 5
Location: Redford, Mi.
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon rad fan wiring melt down, runs all the time |
|
|
To all who replied to my post Thank You! Your input and pics are very helpful to myself! The fan is running on the third stage or high ( and yes it sounds like a JET VERY LOUD ) without the key and cold. I pulled the battery negative cable to stop the fan. Here is what I've done so far. 1. disconnected radiator fan sensor wiring connector. 2. disconnected the rad fan resistor behind left headlamp. 3. removed 30 amp fuse in fuse block (#1 position.) 4. Removed fan relay in fuse block ( but I believe this is for lower speed.) And the fan runs on high when I touch the negative battery cable to the negative battery post ( I did this after disconnecting each step.) Now as for the high speed power source and location, from what i see on page 97.145 of the Bentley book or page 113 of the VW wiring diagram book ( same diagram.) About in the middle slightly to the left is the 3rd stage rad fan 50 amp fuse (S42) which I believe is located in the D-pillar area. I used my DVOM to check the continuity between the feed from the burnt fuse to the resistor for the fan relay. I'm pretty sure the 3rd stage is run through D-pillar area. I have to take about a 2 week break from this vehicle. I will be studying this site and the 2 manuals I have in the mean time. Any thoughts or input will be greattly appreciated!!!!
_________________
Bill Ferguson
1989 Westy
Freinds westy but I'm his friend/ mechanic |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32586
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
termuehlen 
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2012
Posts: 993
Location: Redwood City
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon rad fan wiring melt down, runs all the time |
|
|
In the center of your picture of the burnt wires in the D pillar there appears to be some kind of a rusty lug connecting red and black wires. I would look at that. It is not original. The 50A fuse strip terminals are burnt beyond recognition. There was both a red wire from the battery there and a red wire to the cooling fan (Bentley 97.140). If those two wires have been connected at that lug, it could be the cause of your problem.
There is more good information about the likely cause of your "melt down" here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
_________________
1988 Westfalia automatic Subaru OBD1
1986 syncro tintop wbx
Last edited by termuehlen on Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
waftheixmechanic
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2017
Posts: 5
Location: Redford, Mi.
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon rad fan wiring melt down, runs all the time |
|
|
| termuehlen wrote: |
In the center of your picture of the burnt wires in the D pillar there appears to be some kind of a rusty lug connecting red and black wires. I would look at that. It is not original. The 50A fuse strip terminals are burnt beyond recognition. There was both a red wire from the battery there and a red wire to the cooling fan (Bentley 97.141). If those two wires have been connected at that lug, it could be the cause of your problem.
There is more good information about the likely cause of your "melt down" here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
Thanks for the interest and info. Now I have been studying the Bentley and the VW electric manuals, looking at some of my notes. I'm about 99% sure that the 3rd stage relay is in the D-pillar. let me state the reasoning behind this. The ground wire for the relay and many A/c related components(are in both aforementioned manuals) are at the #57 location. I found this ground on page 110 of the VW electricla manual. #57 - on left rear D-pillar. As for the black wire - red wire on a rusty lug. I guess it's a bad pic or i should have added a caption. Those are one of the lugs of the 50 amp metal fuse under the relay that was fried ( These are the load side for the fuse, the feed from the Alt. is not in the pic - but these two lugs and the fuse being blown are what caused the burn spots on the back of the panel.) It is not an add-on or a repair the wire at the rad cooling fan resistor ( behind the left headlamp) is black also. Why I'm not sure. I've seen wire color wrong and or change color in the circuit.I also ohmed the wire in question to the resistor and it was about 20 ohms of resistance. this is why i believe the 3rd stage relay is the one fried in pic. I could be wrong but i have to go by the ground location. now on your link to a similar problem, I wish my friend knew what the smell of burning electrical components was!!!! I believe that my tie into (or hopefully The reason) for the meltdown!
Thanks again to all for advice, links and thoughts on this problem!!!!!
_________________
Bill Ferguson
1989 Westy
Freinds westy but I'm his friend/ mechanic |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7916
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon rad fan wiring melt down, runs all the time |
|
|
| waftheixmechanic wrote: |
| I'm about 99% sure that the 3rd stage relay is in the D-pillar. |
Unless someone did some major re-wiring, that is incorrect. The 3rd stage cooling fan relay, as already pointed out, is up front in the dash, behind the left vent:
(^borrowed photo)
The black/yellow wire from the A/C compressor clutch relay (#1 in my diagram above & below) goes to the 3rd stage relay up front in the dash. Ensure the D-pillar relays are correct and are in their correct positions:
The fuse for the 3rd stage fan is attached to the main relay panel up front under/in the dash.
That 50A fuse that blew at the D-pillar is for the A/C system.
As for the ground location, the wiring diagrams are not 100% correct, 100% of the time. The ground for the 3rd stage relay is 30. 
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kourt
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1940
Location: Austin, TX
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon rad fan wiring melt down, runs all the time |
|
|
Agree with Kamz.
See Bentley page 97.145.
Follow the track from the battery, 6.0 gauge red wire, location T1c ("behind instrument panel"), to S42, cooling fan fuse 50A (behind the instrument panel, above the main fuse block), which is a brass strip fuse. Then follow the 6.0 gauge red wire from there to terminal 2/30 of the J135 Radiator Cooling Fan Relay (3rd stage) which is also behind the dash, next to the strip fuse.
From the relay, terminal 8/87, 6.0 gauge red wire goes to the fan itself. Why would they run that all the way back to the D pillar and then forward again? Look at the big picture: running the cooling fan wiring for stage 3 (which is installed on all vans) to the D pillar AC wiring (which is an option on some vans) doesn't make sense... because it's all under the dashboard, above the fuse panel.
Get out of the D pillar--the rad fan is not controlled from there. The D pillar wiring is for controlling the AC blower fans, not the radiator fan.
Another source: the GoWesty "Cooling System in Vanagons: Explained" web post:
The 450-watt system is comprised of:
1) Radiator (up front)
2) Two-stage thermo-switch on radiator
a. First stage comes on at a radiator temperature of 85C (185F)
b. Third stage comes on at a radiator temperature of 95C (203F)
3) Electric cooling fan on radiator, 450 watt
4) Resistor behind left headlight
5) Fuse for fan first and second stage on fuse panel, #1, 30 amp
6) Relay for fan second stage on fuse panel, location #5
7) Relay for radiator fan third stage under dash, to left of speedo
8 Fuse for fan third stage, strip type 50 amp right next the third stage relay
9) Water pump on engine
10) Thermostat on engine
11) Hoses and pipes throughout
BTW the stage 1 and 3 fans are wired for the possibility of running in the key-off condition, so to have the fan continue running after the van is shut off is normal. Proper radiator temp switch function should turn those fan functions off after they sufficiently cool the van. My money is on a failed 3rd stage relay or failed radiator thermoswitch, or a short in the wiring.
kourt |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
waftheixmechanic
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2017
Posts: 5
Location: Redford, Mi.
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon rad fan wiring melt down, runs all the time |
|
|
| kourt wrote: |
Agree with Kamz.
See Bentley page 97.145.
Follow the track from the battery, 6.0 gauge red wire, location T1c ("behind instrument panel"), to S42, cooling fan fuse 50A (behind the instrument panel, above the main fuse block), which is a brass strip fuse. Then follow the 6.0 gauge red wire from there to terminal 2/30 of the J135 Radiator Cooling Fan Relay (3rd stage) which is also behind the dash, next to the strip fuse.
From the relay, terminal 8/87, 6.0 gauge red wire goes to the fan itself. Why would they run that all the way back to the D pillar and then forward again? Look at the big picture: running the cooling fan wiring for stage 3 (which is installed on all vans) to the D pillar AC wiring (which is an option on some vans) doesn't make sense... because it's all under the dashboard, above the fuse panel.
Get out of the D pillar--the rad fan is not controlled from there. The D pillar wiring is for controlling the AC blower fans, not the radiator fan.
Another source: the GoWesty "Cooling System in Vanagons: Explained" web post:
The 450-watt system is comprised of:
1) Radiator (up front)
2) Two-stage thermo-switch on radiator
a. First stage comes on at a radiator temperature of 85C (185F)
b. Third stage comes on at a radiator temperature of 95C (203F)
3) Electric cooling fan on radiator, 450 watt
4) Resistor behind left headlight
5) Fuse for fan first and second stage on fuse panel, #1, 30 amp
6) Relay for fan second stage on fuse panel, location #5
7) Relay for radiator fan third stage under dash, to left of speedo
8 Fuse for fan third stage, strip type 50 amp right next the third stage relay
9) Water pump on engine
10) Thermostat on engine
11) Hoses and pipes throughout
BTW the stage 1 and 3 fans are wired for the possibility of running in the key-off condition, so to have the fan continue running after the van is shut off is normal. Proper radiator temp switch function should turn those fan functions off after they sufficiently cool the van. My money is on a failed 3rd stage relay or failed radiator thermoswitch, or a short in the wiring.
kourt |
thanks again for the info/ posts. the picture w/ the dash removed. is the 3rd stage relay on the a-pillar by the vent outlet? Now I need to find out what the two hanging relays in my first photos are for. i did trace down the power feeds to the relays and they are spliced into the headlamp power feeds for high and low. it will be a few weeks before I'm physically with the van. Thanks again to all for the help!!!!
_________________
Bill Ferguson
1989 Westy
Freinds westy but I'm his friend/ mechanic |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
