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miller9091
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2017
Posts: 35
Location: Northern West Virgina
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 Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:35 pm Post subject: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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I have a 1979 VW Bus with a 2.0 FI engine, she runs strong (6 hour drive to get her home) but I always have to crank the engine at least three times to get a start. On warm days it seems like 3 cranks give or take at 6 seconds, on a cool day maybe 6 cranks but its never exact. The one difference is after she's warmed up usually I can get a start first try within a few seconds.
Example 1: 88 degree day still took two tries
Example 2: High 60's took 7 cranks.
Background: When the bus was bought the idle was high and I since adjusted the distributor (wasn't bolted down) and the idle screw, have a slower idle that takes a little gas at first start up to keep running until warm, 30 seconds. The bus did the same starting sequence before the adjustment and seems to have no relevance on the starting issue. One more thing, I can give a shot of starting fluid and she will start right up!
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated! Also I searched the forums some but couldn't find anything to fit exact. I'd love to hear some opinions.
Sweet Green!
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scubaseas
Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013
Posts: 442
Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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Loose the starting fluid. You can break things with it.
Loss of rest fuel pressure, like over night can be dirty injectors leaking down (use Techron or similar injection cleaner). Or it could be one of the two check valves in the system. One is on the fuel pump and may not be serviceable except for replacing the pump (I don't know if you still have the OE pump or not). The other check valve is part of the pressure regulator. You can diagnose it with a pressure gauge and a couple of fuel line clamps (needle nose vise grips with hoses over the jaws work fine)
_________________
Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired
Last edited by scubaseas on Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51155
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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| scubaseas wrote: |
| When you turn the key to the "on" position you should hear the fuel pump run for about 1 to 2 seconds. Try turning the key on, off, on, off, on, off about 5 times then try starting |
Bad news Al, L-jet doesn't work like modern systems, the fuel pump should never ever run when you turn on the key, only while cranking, or if it's drawing enough vacuum to open the flap in the AFM. But good tip on the starting fluid, OK for direct injection diesels, potential death for anything that uses spark ignition.
Also good advice on the fuel pressure, a gauge will expose any flaws in the system.
Hard starts cold often mean a vacuum leak you haven't found, L-jet won't tolerate any, even the tiniest one skews the intended mixture and causes all sorts of issues. If you do a smoke test and fix all the 40+ year old petrified hoses and it still puts up a fight starting move on to the TS 2 sensor on the #3 cylinder head beside the intake manifold.
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scubaseas
Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013
Posts: 442
Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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| Quote: |
Bad news Al, L-jet doesn't work like modern systems, the fuel pump should never ever run when you turn on the key, only while cranking, or if it's drawing enough vacuum to open the flap in the AFM
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My apologies. I have edited the post and will refrain from posting. Modern like D Jetronic? LH Jetronic, CIS?
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Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
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kinggeorge13
Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013
Posts: 95
Location: Fort Langley, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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I've got the same 1979 engine and I've had the exact same problem as you describe (and yep, I used starter fluid to get it started quickly sometimes). My problem was the 5th injector (cold start valve) was completely sealed with rock-hard crap that even after removing it from the bus and soaking it in pure injector cleaner for a week, it was mostly still there and could not even see the little hole when the fuel sprays out. I ended up buying a new one which #1 is hard to find and #2 is super expensive but when I put it in, everything was wonderful again for the first time in a long long time. That bus fires up on the first crank every time now. What you are describing I would bet is exactly that.
Note that before I replaced it I did the usual (and quick/easy) checking that the signals going to the cold start valve were correct and timed out after about 5 - 10 seconds so I knew all the circuitry that controls the cold start valve was working (super easy to test with a 12v test light or voltmeter while someone cranks the engine).
For the future, I also ordered a tested used cold start valve as it seems to be a handy thing to have around especially as they are no longer made and seem to be disappearing fairly fast. |
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kinggeorge13
Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013
Posts: 95
Location: Fort Langley, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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Just for reference, here is a photo of the CSV I pulled out of my bus along with the new one I installed. Not hard to see why I had a problem starting my bus each day.
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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When the bus was bought the idle was high
This could have been due to a vacuum leak busdaddy was referring to.
I can give a shot of starting fluid and she will start right up!
This may be due to the Cold Valve System not working correctly.
You should always start with a Tune up!
Tune up
Smoke Tester
thnx mayor ratwell
Temperature Sensor II
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/TempSensorII.html
Test cold start system
Good luck
Tcash |
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ac78
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2008
Posts: 330
Location: Nashville
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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I was leaning toward cold start valve too. The other thing to look at would be auxiliary air regulator based on what your decribing.
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miller9091
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2017
Posts: 35
Location: Northern West Virgina
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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| scubaseas wrote: |
| Loose the starting fluid. You can break things with it. |
Thought that might be a bad idea but thats what the old owner told me. lol. No worries, I quit the starter fluid after a few times and just cranked it. The previous owners had the engine rebuilt a few years back and I wouldn’t think the injectors are dirty, mainly because they hardly drove it but thats a quick fix and won’t hurt to try. I’ll look into the pressure regulator too.
[quote="busdaddy"]
| scubaseas wrote: |
| Hard starts cold often mean a vacuum leak you haven't found, L-jet won't tolerate any, even the tiniest one skews the intended mixture and causes all sorts of issues. If you do a smoke test and fix all the 40+ year old petrified hoses and it still puts up a fight starting move on to the TS 2 sensor on the #3 cylinder head beside the intake manifold. |
Since the engine was rebuilt the hoses all look good but again who knows, I’ll add it to the list.
| kinggeorge13 wrote: |
I've got the same 1979 engine and I've had the exact same problem as you describe (and yep, I used starter fluid to get it started quickly sometimes). My problem was the 5th injector (cold start valve) was completely sealed with rock-hard crap that even after removing it from the bus and soaking it in pure injector cleaner for a week, it was mostly still there and could not even see the little hole when the fuel sprays out. I ended up buying a new one which #1 is hard to find and #2 is super expensive but when I put it in, everything was wonderful again for the first time in a long long time. That bus fires up on the first crank every time now. What you are describing I would bet is exactly that.
Note that before I replaced it I did the usual (and quick/easy) checking that the signals going to the cold start valve were correct and timed out after about 5 - 10 seconds so I knew all the circuitry that controls the cold start valve was working (super easy to test with a 12v test light or voltmeter while someone cranks the engine).
For the future, I also ordered a tested used cold start valve as it seems to be a handy thing to have around especially as they are no longer made and seem to be disappearing fairly fast. |
Eureka! I’ve read some other topics that have hinted at this before but with the situations being identical makes it seem even more probable. I’ll have to check the easy fixes first and then if all else fails move onto the CSV. Thats a rough looking CSV! Could you give me more detail on where I can locate the CSV? Example I’m facing the engine bay, right or left side, ect or a image would be great.
 I appreciate everyone chiming in and will keep the topic up to date as I try these remedies. |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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Problem:
Guaranteed Solution - soak tip overnight
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old DKP driver
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2005
Posts: 4145
Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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Not only soak the "pintle ' but apply air pressure with approx 5-15 psi air pressure slowly to one side of the valve to evacuate the old fuel debris and
usually they normal spray pattern will return to a normal mist.
The old spray pattern is similar to a nozzle on most aerosol spray cans.(conical)
and if not used for a period of time on will develop varnish on it and Not spray
enough during the cold start period.
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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| miller9091 wrote: |
[
Thought that might be a bad idea but thats what the old owner told me. |
Since when do PO's know anything?
| Quote: |
lol. No worries, I quit the starter fluid after a few times and just cranked it. The previous owners had the engine rebuilt a few years back and I wouldn’t think the injectors are dirty, mainly because they hardly drove |
All the more reason to think the injectors might indeed be dirty. These things don't like to sit. Gas goes bad, turns into a varnish. Clogs things up. Best way to keep your old car going is to drive it regularly.
Also just because the engine was rebuilt doesn't mean anything was done to the injectors. I highly doubt they were sent off for cleaning and calibration, for example.
| Quote: |
Since the engine was rebuilt the hoses all look good but again who knows, I’ll add it to the list. |
Hard to tell just by looking - best bet is to make a smoke tester. Lots of vacuum hoses and therefore leak points available on this engine.
That said, first thing you should do is a basic tune-up:
1) Adjust valves on cold engine - now - you have a '79 which SHOULD have hydraulic lifters but it may not. Valves are adjusted differently with hydraulic lifters so you will need to determine what you have before adjusting. If you do have hydraulic lifters, you should set them up correctly and then they do not need periodic adjustment like solid lifter engines do.
2) Set your points properly and then set your ignition timing properly.
Once you do those two things, see if that improves your hard starting situation.
The cold start valve is located on the intake air plenum right in the center of the engine, on the rear side (rear = toward rear of car). The fuel ring runs through it and it has an electrical connector.
The cold start valve is controlled by the thermo-time switch. It only is supposed to activate when BOTH the following conditions are met:
1) Ambient temperature is below xx degrees (I don't recall what xx is but for some reason 50 degrees F is sticking in my head)
AND
2) The starter is operating.
The CSV is completely independent of the ECU - the ECU does not know or care if the CSV exists or works or not.
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williamM
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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 they can also be replaced with a long snout Rabbit injector- as reported here on Samba- same with the hts2 can be replaced with one off an italian scooter (ask Robbie) - for cheap. 
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51155
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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I'd be more than a little worried the EGR diffuser tube in the plenum is just as crusty and about to break off in large chunks for a one way trip into a cylinder, there's more than gas buildup on there, I see rust.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
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miller9091
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2017
Posts: 35
Location: Northern West Virgina
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Guaranteed Solution - soak tip overnight |
Definitely going to try and restore the valve if possible.
| old DKP driver wrote: |
Not only soak the "pintle ' but apply air pressure with approx 5-15 psi air pressure slowly to one side of the valve to evacuate the old fuel debris and
usually they normal spray pattern will return to a normal mist. |
Good Tip!
| sjbartnik wrote: |
| miller9091 wrote: |
[
Thought that might be a bad idea but thats what the old owner told me. |
Since when do PO's know anything? |
Lol, so true!
Everyone has been a huge help and I cant wait to get a weekend to try these suggestions out and let everyone know what I find. Hopefully this weekend, I'm trying to get this love bus a road ready cross country machine! |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50353
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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The CSV should operate briefly even when the engines temps are as high as 110°F. Note that it is the engine block temps that count, not the ambient temps, or the head temps.
You should also check the operation of your AAR (aux air regulator) as it can lead to problems with the idle speed. If you haven't replaced all you vacuum lines, elbows, and boots, then doing so will save you a lot of grief. |
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miller9091
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2017
Posts: 35
Location: Northern West Virgina
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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Okay, so I finally had some time, not much, and I poured a bottle of Techron fuel injector cleaner in the fuel tank, ran through it and haven't noticed a difference.
I did a smoke test (with a piece of sandalwood lol) and couldn't find a obvious vacuum leak but I do hear a noise, not quite like a hissing but something to me that doesn't quite sound right. I had someone else listen (neighbor who works on all his vehicles) and he didn't think it was a problem. Its definitely a air noise but might just be the intake, I'll check into that more tomorrow in the daylight.
My next task is to pull the CSV and make sure it isn't corroded, this is where i need some more help. I want to ensure I know where the CSV is located.
I've attached some pics of the engine bay and a diagram from the Bentley manual, from what I can tell the CSV is located under the the blue module in picture two? Is that right?
Remember I have a 1979 bus but it has a 1980 FI engine.
I appreciate the input!! |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51155
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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The CSV is that blue thing, be super gentle when removing it or the hoses, the plastic can get loose in the top and leak. Don't be shocked if it does nothing, the CSV only works a second or two when it's really cold, on warm days it's squirt is so short you may miss it.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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miller9091
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2017
Posts: 35
Location: Northern West Virgina
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| The CSV is that blue thing, be super gentle when removing it or the hoses, the plastic can get loose in the top and leak. Don't be shocked if it does nothing, the CSV only works a second or two when it's really cold, on warm days it's squirt is so short you may miss it. |
Thanks!! I'll let you know what I find. |
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miller9091
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2017
Posts: 35
Location: Northern West Virgina
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Hard Start! 3-6 Tries, help! |
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UPDATE!
Removed the CSV from engine, left hoses and blue plug attached, placed paper towel underneath CSV nipple (to help confirm any spray) and had my wife crank it several times on two separate cool days, around 60, no spray. Usually around this temp the bus takes quite awhile to start. The CSV nipple looks clean and corrosion free.
Any ideas on the next step? Is there a way to check the valve itself? or should I start to investigate The thermo-time switch? |
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