pgsg 1957 ? without chassis number

[Ingo73]

Hello, my name is Ingo Neubauer and I come from Germany.
Please excuse my bad english.
I would like to restore the following bus original.
(I also own 2 ovalis from December 1955, one as standard with folding roof (jupitergrau) the other is an export (stratosilber) with folding roof.)

I bought a pgsg bus from a Netherlands dealer in 2013, which had reimportated this from the USA. The screwed nameplate gave it one of October 1956.
A chassis number had not hit the sheet below the type plate. This would have been very rare in the United States expoed buses at that time. My bus was unsealed in the original lacquer at this time.
Now I have received documents, in which the body number is also listed. My body number is: 287547. This number and the front axle number, it knows it as December 1957 out.
My problem: I would like to know the correct chassis number to my bus.
The VW museum in Wolfsburg gives only information on the chassis number - which I do not have.
Can someone help me ?
Is the statement correct, that there are several buses without a broken chassis number in the USA?
I hope to convince the VW museum to be able to give me information.
I thank you for any help !!

[easy e]

It seems a little strange to have no numbers.
Looking forward to hearing what other people have to say.

The body number doesn't mean much.
The chassis number is everything.

See this thread: Early 57 body numbers

I don't know where you were looking for the body number... see it in the upper left of the bulkhead?

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[Ingo73]

Hello, thanks for the answer !
This is all so far understandable but I have the following problem:Not only the body number fits the rest of the bus, December 1957. front axle number is dec. '57, the bus has a switch rod protection tube, six side windows, reinforcing plates on the inside of the C-pillar and the loading doors, fuel cap on two rubber plugs, ... all this does not match the chassis number on the license plate of October 1956.In doubt, I must take over the chassis number of October 1956, although that can not be true!
I would like to try to find the correct chassis number.

[adriano]

The best solution is to post some pictures of your bus and we could help you to identify the right year.

[Ingo73]

Here are some photos.
More photos I can still deliver.

[CaLiBus]

Shouldn't there be primer under that paint? It went straight to bare metal ..
Look behind this area for traces of any previous hacking

[adriano]

Hello Ingo, I know very well your bus because I was buying her in August 2013 from the same dealer. I stopped the deal because, after my request of a detailed picture of the serial number and plate on the engine bay, dealer replied me immediately that bus was sold but she was on sale on his website until November 2013. I remember pgsg was a very dry and amazing patina bus.
I hope you could solve this problem.

[adriano]

These are the pictures of your pgsg in 2010 when samba member GTV was the owner.
And this is the thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4942187&highlight=#4942187
Maybe you could send a PM to him.

And topic :
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

[Ingo73]

Hi, thanks for the message.
I flew over it a while ago. It is unfortunately not all pleasant.
Many thanks for the mediation!
Slowly, light comes into the story.

I am still the opinion that in the area where otherwise the chassis number has been broken nothing has been exchanged to sheet metal.
Are there several buses without a chassis number?

Best regards
Ingo

[sled]

that bus was claimed to be stolen. perhaps someone altered the VIN to hide it when exporting it to europe.

"STOLEN 1958 SPLIT WINDOW BUS from my Grandmothers property in October or November of 2010 in South Eastern Arizona .Any information would be greatly appreciated you can contact me here or contact the Cochise county Sherriffs department . (520) 805-5670
This is a project bus no engine ,etc possibly in the S. CALIFORNIA SEATTLE OR TACOMA AREA NOW
also in same time period a 1958 transporter"

_________________
drive your split.

[Malokin Martin]

It will be an interesting thing to see if the owner does the right thing, or if this thread quietly disappears now that we know it's stolen

[OvalTeenAZ]

Birth certificate says 1956 but the bus is a 1958?



I know this bus very well.....

[GTV]

The owner contacted me, and I sent him a long message. Figured I should just copy and paste it here as well:

Wow, cool to see my old bus again May I ask where in Germany you live? I'm going there next month.

Here is my story with that bus...
I bought it in October/November of 2010 when I saw it on the back of a truck driving through my town in Arizona. It was dirty and full of trash, it looked like it was just pulled out of a field. The guys I bought it from didn't really know what it was, so I got a good price on it. It did not have a title, and I foolishly did not make any paperwork of the sale. It was my first bus and was just excited to have it.

I spent a little time cleaning it up. I replaced one of the pop out windows on the passenger side with an original paint Palm Green window frame. The overhead vent cover was from a Mango bus and it had two big holes in it, I found an original paint Sand Green cover for it. Other than that, I didn't do any work to it.

Two things led me to sell it. First, I was rebuilding the engine on my EMPI GTV Beetle at the time and I realized that I did not have the money and time for two projects. Second, I started dating a girl that December- I immediately knew it was going to be a serious relationship, so selling the bus seemed like the right thing to do. Side note- that same girl and I just got married this past February

I was a bus novice at the time. I knew it was old, but I really didn't know that much about buses in general. I wasn't sure of its value. So it seemed like the best thing to do would be to advertise it on eBay and let the market decide the value. I think I listed the eBay auction in the spring, it sold for $5100 and I was happy. Unfortunately, the buyer lived in Washington state (coincidentally where I live now), and he couldn't have it shipped immediately. It stayed in my garage for about 6 weeks after the sale until it was finally picked up (I think in May) by a truck with an enclosed trailer, heading to a warehouse in Los Angeles.

I thought my experience with the PGSG was over. It had only just begun.
Sometime later that summer I was contacted by a woman through The Samba who accused me of stealing the bus. She claimed it was stolen along with a single cab from her deceased fathers property (she had no proof of ownership, but I believe she was telling the truth). I spoke with her and with law enforcement over the phone and I gave them all of the information I had. They wanted to know who I sold it to but I didn't keep any of those details (I was preparing to move in with my girl so I was getting rid of a lot of things). All I remembered about the seller was that he was from Washington state and his name sounded like it was from Southeast Asia (very hard to pronounce, much less remember). I truly felt bad for the lady, so I offered her $1000 (or $1500?) of my profit. She declined, and she was a real mean bitch about it. Some people on the Samba thought I was the one who stole it. That really upset me. So, I moved on with my life.

I remember seeing the bus advertised on The Samba a couple years later in The Netherlands for a LOT more than I sold it for.

Fast forward to the fall of 2016. I'm living in Washington state, and I advertise some VW parts for sale on Samba. A local buyer is interested, so I invite him to my house. It turns out to be the same guy I sold the bus to over 5 years earlier! He had the bus shipped to LA and it sat in the warehouse. Sometime later the owner of the warehouse got in trouble and everything was seized by the police, including the PGSG. So the guy I sold it to never even saw his bus. He also didn't have a title. He lost the bus and his $5100.

So, as you can see your bus has a troubled past I have no idea why the VIN plate and the body don't match (I remember it being a Nov/Dec '57 bus as well). But I didn't really know much about buses back then.

This is my guess: It was sold at a police auction after it was seized, then the VIN plate was changed because the buyer had seen the drama on the Samba. They put a clean VIN plate on, got a title and sold it off to Europe. I have no idea why there isn't a stamped VIN on the body below the tag. That is really strange. Can you tell if that area has been tampered with?

Also, a friend of mine back in Arizona says he has the original 36hp engine to that bus. I showed him the Samba thread, so I think he will contact you about the engine.

Good luck to you-

Zach Gomulka
_________________
EMPI Power Rules!

[Ingo73]

This is a moving story and I honestly do not quite know how to behave correctly. I am not aware of any guilt. I bought the bus quite officially from a dealer.
I was inexperienced because it was my first bus. The dealer "proved" me with the screwed sign and the VW certificate for what a bus it is here. It all fit for a layman.
Now over the time, I noticed deviations. Ongoing changes during the production which only stopped after October '56.
Do not really know now what is better.
Either the whole thing simply abort, or whether the bus is perhaps legitimate.
I also do not know what I instead, when I turn to the original owner with the request me still possible data - here, of course, specifically the chassis number - to give / sell ??
What do you all mean?
I do not know American legislation.

The seller to the dealer is according to the certificate of Title:

Mercado Richard
12128 Woodruff AVE
Downey CA 90241

I hope, by the re-rolling up of the story Zach Gomulka will be relieved further or the story can be completely enlightened!

Best regards
Ingo

[pondoras box]

If it was sold at a police auction, then it has either been modified to hide its true identity with another VIN and title to match or they cleared it and issued a new VIN for it. They would not be allowed to sell a non titled vehicle at a police auction it would have been crushed.

If the original woman who claims it was stolen from her has no documentation to prove she was the legit owner then she really couldn't even file a stolen vehicle report. She didn't legally own it.

The title is only good here in the United States, it should not have been allowed to ship out of the US or into Germany without some sort of title. If a shipper was used then they wont take it without proof of ownership. Customs and Border Protection wont let it go without documentation. Too many people involved with too much to loose to ship a stolen car for someone else to gain a few thousand dollars.

Germany would issue their own paperwork to show legal ownership.

To me it sounds like no one here in the US has any real legal claim to this bus. If it went to court that's how it would go down. No different when everyone goes through Vermont to title a car. You still run the risk of the original title showing up. If someone comes up with the original title in their name then yeah you could have some issues if you brought the bus back over here. If the original woman who claimed the car to be stolen had proper paperwork then GTV would have had some explaining to do, not just answer some questions and then everything forgotten about.

Bottom line is your bus has a questionable past here, not there. If you can title it in Germany then there is no sense in getting wrapped around the axle that it "may" have been stolen here in the US. Sounds like no one here can even show legal ownership anyway. I say if someone has the original title then they can pay to have it shipped back to them short of that then no one can say anything.
_________________
Looking for anything from Hal Casey Motors out of Hamburg New York, from license plate surrounds to matchbooks.

1961 23 Window (Bobo)
1965 11 Window (Zelda)
1965 13 Window (Lucas)
1957 Oval ragtop
1988 Cabriolet VR6 conversion
Plus a lot of other rusty junk

[Abscate]

No VIN, ITS A SIN.
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.ssS!

[Malokin Martin]

I would probably be having a chat with Mercado Richard at this point...

[Ingo73]

I just have contact with her. (Risk)
She gave me willing information and gave me the VIN!
I am very relieved and happy!
So the story has now cleared up for me.
Thank you for your invaluable help !!!!!

I had tried to delete the photo with my "wrong VIN", not that someone falsifies a "normal bus" or something else. Is probably not possible in the normal way.
Maybe there is the bus but still and the one missing the original type plate. Then I like to help.

[low54]

That's good news
Hopefully you can now clean it up a little and get it driving and enjoy it the paint will clean up really nice such a nice fade on it.
_________________
65 original paint so42 dormobile
52 original paint 52 split beetle

[mandraks]

in germany it is not so easy to have a patina look bus. Lots of extra questions when it has to go through inspection.
_________________
regards

Uli

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'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel