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Mount for oil cooler broken
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mattscook27
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:35 pm    Post subject: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

Hi, i just purchased my first beetle. its a 1961 and the engine and all that stuff was out of car when I bought it along with some new parts. One of the new parts was an oil cooler kit, upon taking the doghouse cooler off i noticed the top bolt is missing (see photo, i also put photo of gasket). i thought i could account for this by using the gasket and seals to make a good seal. When i start the engine now oil spews out of it. anybody have any ideas for me to get a good seal, i really wanna drive it.

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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

Should be a stud there. Center punch what is left. Drill thru the center of the stud with a 1/8" drill bit. Then move up a size or two in drill bit and re-drill. Each time you drill it try to get the hole more exactly centered in the stud. Once centered as much as possible and the threads of the stud are all that is left in the hole. Use a machinist scribe or some smaller nails to pull/work out the remaining stud threads.

If you mess up the threaded hole you can go up to 8mm x 1.00 threaded hole and either install a straight stud or a 8 to 6mm stepped stud.
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mattscook27
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

okay i was thinking something like that, how far should i drill in? i dont wanns mess anything inside up
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

actually the drill will follow the path of the pilot drill. if the pilot drill is centered well, so will be the larger drills that follow unless you drill at an off angle. the key is to make the center punch dead center so the pilot drill starts dead center.


you probably do not want to drill thru to avoid getting chips inside the motor.

an easy out or simular excrator can be used once the hole is made.


if this is a job you dont want to do, a machine shop should be able to do this job for you.

good luck
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

Those are the wrong seals too. Show a pic of the bottom of the oil cooler.

The paper gasket is not needed

Those black cylinder seals are for early engines with "original" early style coolers

Green ones are for early engines with "after market" early style coolers

Then there are red and white ones...it all depends on your engine and cooler
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mattscook27
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

okay this may sound stupid but what is a center punch? there is a slight dent there which makes me think somebody may have tried this in the past.

Also here is the link to the oil kit adapter. in the instructions it said to use the gasket instead of the seals, but i just used both. then i tried only using gasket and it was worse. how could i find the right seals?


https://derale.com/products/filtration/engine2013-...kit-detail
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bluebus86
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

mattscook27 wrote:
okay this may sound stupid but what is a center punch? there is a slight dent there which makes me think somebody may have tried this in the past.

Also here is the link to the oil kit adapter. in the instructions it said to use the gasket instead of the seals, but i just used both. then i tried only using gasket and it was worse. how could i find the right seals?


https://derale.com/products/filtration/engine2013-...kit-detail


if you dont know about a center punch, please take this repair job to a machine shop, a vw engine specific shop might be best. you dont want to do your first center punch use on the motor.


the center punch is used to make a recess in the stud to mark the center, that will prevent the subsequent drilling operation from drifting off center. after drilling an easy out type extractor is placed in the drilled hole, and rotated to remove the stud. if your not confident you can do this take it too a shop (ie can you drill deadstraight, dead cneter, operate an extractor without breaking it? If you have never drilled and tapped a hole, get that skill down perfect before pursuing this job on your own.)

good luck
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

What is wrong with the stock oil cooler? Why do you think you need an external oil cooler?
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mattscook27
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

i dont think there is anything wrong with it, i just have an external one with a filter and would rather use that if i can
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

Taking in to a machine shop is a great idea, this should be straightforward job for them, maybe while you wait. If they can't get the broken part out, the can drill and re-tap to 6 x 1.0mm.

If mine, I'd centerpunch and use my left-hand drill bits to drill out, oftentimes these catch and extract the broken-off part. If it didn't extract, I'd just drill and then tap to 6 x 1.0mm.
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mattscook27
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

the old cooler is pretty crusty and a rusty color on the outside but inside looks to be good. i just bought these seals,

http://www.jbugs.com/product/111198029OR.html

ill try the original cooler to see if that leaks
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

do you really have the dog house fan set up? that was used srock on later bugs circa near about 1970 or so onward. it is a different fan fan house, cooler and such. if you got the stock system for your year bug it is NOT a dog house system.

note that if you do run a filter off the cooler, only a small part of the oil will be filtered, as not all oil passes thru the cooler there are other ways to install a filter that truely make the filter a full flow device.

so please check if you have a true dog house cooling system or not. if your bug has been upgraded to a dog house type of system, then you probably have no need for an external cooler on a stock motor.



dog house link....

http://www.vw-resource.com/oil_cooler.html
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

Without that top stud anything you put there will leak. Fix that first.
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mattscook27
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

Oh that is my mistake, I was under the impression that any oil cooler that stuck out of the engine was called a doghouse cooler. Mine is not a doghouse cooler and as far as I know is the stock from 1961.

Also is the stud threaded into the block or welded/attached in some other way?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

mattscook27 wrote:
Oh that is my mistake, I was under the impression that any oil cooler that stuck out of the engine was called a doghouse cooler. Mine is not a doghouse cooler and as far as I know is the stock from 1961.

Also is the stud threaded into the block or welded/attached in some other way?


the stud is simply threaded in place
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

Try a search of the WWW for "Center Punch". Youtube has lots of good videos on how to drill metal.

As for trying an Easy Out to pull out the stud remains, not a good idea. Easy Out should only be used when a stud or bolt is broken off, and the remains of the fastener is not stuck. Almost certainly that stud has corroded in place, thusly why it broke off.

Using an EO to remove a stuck fastener is a good way to break off the EO. Then you have to come up with a way to grind out the tip of the EO that is too hard to drill out. Dealt with such situations in the
USAF all too often and spent many an hour fixing such that had been done by others.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Try a search of the WWW for "Center Punch". Youtube has lots of good videos on how to drill metal.

As for trying an Easy Out to pull out the stud remains, not a good idea. Easy Out should only be used when a stud or bolt is broken off, and the remains of the fastener is not stuck. Almost certainly that stud has corroded in place, thusly why it broke off.

Using an EO to remove a stuck fastener is a good way to break off the EO. Then you have to come up with a way to grind out the tip of the EO that is too hard to drill out. Dealt with such situations in the
USAF all too often and spent many an hour fixing such that had been done by others.



Easy out type extractors can work very well even on stuck studs, you need to be competant at it however. key to it is drilling the largest possible hole in the stud with out drilling into the threads so that the biggest extractor can be inserted the full depth. the hole must be drilled dead in axis with the stud also, else you risk breakage. you also need to know not to apply to much force. easy out type extractors worked for me nearly every time.

I am sorry you had to fix some knuckleheads mistakes that caused broken extractors. not everyone has to skill nor temperment to have a high success rate using them. They may not always been suitable, but in this case I would not hesitate to use one as my first choice, looks like a piece of cake to me

suggest having a shop do this job as it appears the original poster is not very framilar with maching techniques based on his center punch question ( no offense, we all got to learn different skills, just is your first drilling experience should not be on your engine)
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

My friend. WELCOME. If you lack the skills and/or the confidence I would suggest looking for some outside help. I used to live in North County. There is a vintage Porsche shop in Fallbrook and maybe he can help you or direct you towards a different shop. Escondido has a boat load of qualified shops or machine shops. If one knows the depth of that broken stud this is an easy game. Paradise in San Marcos is a full-on repair and machine shop. There is also a buggy shop north in Temecula.
If you continue on buying junk from jbugs I'm sure we will see your car in the classifieds or craiglist.
Hope this helps, Bill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

bluebus86 wrote:

Easy out type extractors can work very well even on stuck studs, you need to be competant at it however. key to it is drilling the largest possible hole in the stud with out drilling into the threads so that the biggest extractor can be inserted the full depth. the hole must be drilled dead in axis with the stud also, else you risk breakage. you also need to know not to apply to much force. easy out type extractors worked for me nearly every time.


If it was a much bigger stud that might work for even a newbie. Problem is if one drills the stud enough material must be left of the fastener around the hole for the EO. EO are just made out of steel and most are hardened (which makes them more brittle than the fastener) to bite into the stud remains. So in this case a 6 mm stud probably being drilled to about a 3mm hole, thusly the 3mm EO cross section at the fastener broken off end is not going to be anywhere near as strong as a 6 mm stud. Snap it will go if the fastener remains was corroded and snapped off due to that in the first place.

Lots less risky to drill or better use a LH set of drills.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Mount for oil cooler broken Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
bluebus86 wrote:

Easy out type extractors can work very well even on stuck studs, you need to be competant at it however. key to it is drilling the largest possible hole in the stud with out drilling into the threads so that the biggest extractor can be inserted the full depth. the hole must be drilled dead in axis with the stud also, else you risk breakage. you also need to know not to apply to much force. easy out type extractors worked for me nearly every time.


If it was a much bigger stud that might work for even a newbie. Problem is if one drills the stud enough material must be left of the fastener around the hole for the EO. EO are just made out of steel and most are hardened (which makes them more brittle than the fastener) to bite into the stud remains. So in this case a 6 mm stud probably being drilled to about a 3mm hole, thusly the 3mm EO cross section at the fastener broken off end is not going to be anywhere near as strong as a 6 mm stud. Snap it will go if the fastener remains was corroded and snapped off due to that in the first place.

Lots less risky to drill or better use a LH set of drills.


It is impossible to snap an extractor in a hole unless you over torque it. the extractor is made of the same material as a tap and is arguably stronger that a two flute tap is some directions due to the cross sectional differences. In fact the extractor is probably of simular material as the left hand drill . Just as with a tap or drill, you cant break it unless you exceed the taps, drill or extractors strength, a bit of practice helps.

A #2 extractor using a 7/64 hole (about 3 mm) would work if one wanted to drill a 3 mm hole The #1 extractor is a bit undersized.

you may wish to try the left hand drill but if it dont work, try the extractor, due to the design, the extractor has a much larger gripping area than the drill, more bite and thus can over come stuck, possibly corroded studs that a left hand drill fails to remove.

now if the stud is not stuck at all, get a tiny cold chissel that is smaller than screw diameter, center it well over the screw and whack it to form a slot for the chissel or screw driver to turn the stud out.
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