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Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera
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Tram
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Manfred58sc wrote:
New cars are hit or miss from what I see. I no longer recommend ownership, just lease ( 3 year max) whatever fits your fancy and return the over-engineered experiment to its maker. That way the transportation is a fixed cost more or less. The window on keeping older cars on the road is closing fast (outside of toys going to the car show) and can't be helped. I keep very large stashes of OG for my own fleet, but I've run out of some stuff and no longer feel very confident on long trips. But ... why travel anymore ( just watch it on you-tube or pay a few bucks for a virtual tour ) the US is just one revolving corporate experience ( "That Panera Bread sure was better than the last one..").
Anyway, I'm sending a good housing their way so they can get home.


Good on the housing, Manfred. I actually am pretty confident I've got the old one sorted with some blue Locktite and a flywheel shim under the snap ring but my rule is "if you have it you won't need it". Wink

I'm still having really good luck with the "a good used Mercedes is better than a new anything else" rule. I still have no really bad issues getting parts for cars back into the early Sixties, and it is all quality stuff that fits and works first time.

Our main family car is a 2001 E320 4Matic wagon with 180K on it now... it was a one owner that was maintained meticulously, and aside from an alternator I've had nothing but routine maintenance.

The back story behind this car is we picked up a 1985 300TDT from a customer of my at my old repair shop in 2002. Paid $4K for it minus some trade work I did to customer's wife's 300SD. I think I wound up actually being out of pocket $2200 on it when all was said and done. Car had 175K on it, but I knew the mechanic (chortle) and it looked new.

We drove it till late 2012 and sold it with nearly 300K on it to another Sambanista in AZ for $8K, which more than covered the initial $4K plus all major repairs I did over the previous 10 years. Then we bought the E class for $7100 cash, so we're still really driving on that initial $4K investment 15 years later.

My wife has loved both cars, driven the wheels off of 'em, and been happy. I haven't made a car payment in 25 years. YAY.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:

A) the axle has to be driven back out with a hammer and a socket over the loosened nut.
B) no slop in the bearings and the races had to be driven in with a drift so there's not an obvious issue in the bearing housing.

C)anyone else had issues of any sort with 68-70 rear drums from Mexico?
I'm considering the $180 German ones from Wolfsburg West.


a) Good axle and bearings

b) Even if you have to drive the races in with a drift through the area where the bearing does not reside, you have to feel carefully for a relaxation at the very end of the process where the bearing "falls into" the wallowed-out "reside" place in the wheel bearing housing. The wheel bearing housing is susceptible to wallowing if the outer race should rotate in place (and they do on older cars). You can see this wear on the bearing you took out. It will be too shiny. THIS causes the thunking you are experiencing, it is not that serious for travel, but it is serious for long-term health of THIS wheel bearing housing. I used red LocTite on my 1970 bus in my rear wheel bearing write-up. It now has another 30,000 miles on it and no obvious symptoms:

http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=11737


It is critical to follow the damn directions on rear axle torque. You need all the rotating races to be sandwiched together as one to stop premature wear. Torque the axle nut to the specified value, then go only to the next cotter hole. If you have new parts, check AGAIN in a couple hundred miles.

B) German drums only! Here's my experience of Brazilian (edit- Mexican!). . . Sad
Colin

http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=12680#p216037
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Last edited by Amskeptic on Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tram
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Amskeptic wrote:
D/A/N wrote:

A) the axle has to be driven back out with a hammer and a socket over the loosened nut.
B) no slop in the bearings and the races had to be driven in with a drift so there's not an obvious issue in the bearing housing.

C)anyone else had issues of any sort with 68-70 rear drums from Mexico?
I'm considering the $180 German ones from Wolfsburg West.


a) Good axle and bearings

b) Even if you have to drive the races in with a drift through the area where the bearing does not reside, you have to feel carefully for a relaxation at the very end of the process where the bearing "falls into" the wallowed-out "reside" place in the wheel bearing housing. The wheel bearing housing is susceptible to wallowing if the outer race should rotate in place (and they do on older cars). You can see this wear on the bearing you took out. It will be too shiny. THIS causes the thunking you are experiencing, it is not that serious for travel, but it is serious for long-term health of THIS wheel bearing housing. I used red LocTite on my 1970 bus in my rear wheel bearing write-up. It now has another 30,000 miles on it and no obvious symptoms:

http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=11737


It is critical to follow the damn directions on rear axle torque. You need all the rotating races to be sandwiched together as one to stop premature wear. Torque the axle nut to the specified value, then go only to the next cotter hole. If you have new parts, check AGAIN in a couple hundred miles.

B) German drums only! Here's my experience of Brazilian . . . Sad
Colin

http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=12680#p216037


Colinskii! Very Happy

a) Yes.
b) Exactly what I found. Used blue locktite and a flywheel shim under the inner snap ring for good measure.

B) These piecers were Mexican, not Brazilian. According to my longtime parts guy, Brazilian is now the GOOD stuff. Shocked German drums from WW due to drop here today.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

So, in a follow up, our saga has come to an end.

The blue Locktite and flywheel shim fixed the slop in the housing/ bearing right up, and our travelers have an entire good used housing assembly from Manfred should they need it.

The German drums from WW cleared up all of the rear brake issues- the rubbing, the lack of braking, and the shake. We could see the Mexican drums were badly out of round in addition to all the other specs being off.

D/A/N has some pics on his phone of all the comparison measurements for the drums and nuts.

Oh, and a public service announcement... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do NOT use the replacement Chinese original style castle nuts... two of the three we had broke in half- one when torquing, and one when removing. The third fit way looser on the axle threads than the used German replacement. These castle nuts are fucking dangerous- if you MUST use new axle nuts get the German late bay/ Vanagon style.

After getting the brakes straightened out, we spent another day dinking with two freshly rebuilt carbs that just would not work... and then the third, a Brasilian Brosal that DID work... suddenly just filled with gas due to a faulty needle and seat, which I replaced with a German one from a Mercedes carb kit.

Bus will cruise at 60- 65 fully laden with a full gas tank, full water tank, full cabinetry, pop top, auxiliary marine battery, and two people. This is with an original rebuilt 1600 SP and the original rebuilt 3 rib trans, so not bad.

Everything on the Bus now works including the window squirters until they bleed off, but that's for another day.

Here's hoping D/A/N and neena have a safe (if slow) trip back to NYC. Then they can post their story of "How Tram Ruined Our Summer Vacation". Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
…Used blue locktite and a flywheel shim under the inner snap ring for good measure.


How close is the flywheel shim (T1 or T4?) to the ID of the hub? This is a nice little thing to keep in my mental bag of tricks……

Robbie
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Bus will cruise at 60- 65 fully laden with a full gas tank, full water tank, full cabinetry, pop top, auxiliary marine battery, and two people. This is with an original rebuilt 1600 SP and the original rebuilt 3 rib trans, so not bad.

Everything on the Bus now works including the window squirters until they bleed off, but that's for another day.

Here's hoping D/A/N and neena have a safe (if slow) trip back to NYC. Then they can post their story of "How Tram Ruined Our Summer Vacation". Smile


I just caught this on some McDonalds Wifi.......We can actually start that story right now because the bus no longer goes above 45 mph, hesitates a lot under hard acceleration, and stalls every time we come to a stop. Why? I suspect it has to do with the condensation on the manifold beneath the carburetor. Why is there condensation? Maybe because the heat risers are cool to the touch even after driving for 4 hours....I know you said the heat risers were clear when you looked at them last week but how do they get clogged in a week? The flap in the air cleaner is opening and closing with the thermostat and even if it weren't, that wouldn't cause cool heat risers. Like I said yesterday, they should be hot as fuck but you insisted otherwise. The one that measures 321* here is the one I can grab and hold onto because it's so cool

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=27

Add to that the fact that the turn signal assembly keeps swiveling around and we intermittently lose our turn signals, and that our alternator can't keep the car idling at a stop light with the headlights on and you're gonna have a bus at your house tonight or tomorrow and we're leaving in our Squareback because this bus is another week or two from ready and this time it has nothing to do with aftermarket parts.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Wire your intake air preheat so that you are getting hot air all the time. This should be enough to prevent icing.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Are you stock exhaust? I bet not.

Most of the after markets connect to the risers but don't provide preheat
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Are you stock exhaust? I bet not.

Most of the after markets connect to the risers but don't provide preheat


Brand new stock exhaust with heater boxes.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Are you stock exhaust? I bet not.

Most of the after markets connect to the risers but don't provide preheat



unless they are drilled out if they have that option.

It might be that the idle issue and the dropped performance are all related to carb or manifold icing.
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Last edited by SGKent on Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:17 pm; edited 6 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Tram wrote:
Bus will cruise at 60- 65 fully laden with a full gas tank, full water tank, full cabinetry, pop top, auxiliary marine battery, and two people. This is with an original rebuilt 1600 SP and the original rebuilt 3 rib trans, so not bad.

Everything on the Bus now works including the window squirters until they bleed off, but that's for another day.

Here's hoping D/A/N and neena have a safe (if slow) trip back to NYC. Then they can post their story of "How Tram Ruined Our Summer Vacation". Smile


I just caught this on some McDonalds Wifi.......We can actually start that story right now because the bus no longer goes above 45 mph, hesitates a lot under hard acceleration, and stalls every time we come to a stop. Why? I suspect it has to do with the condensation on the manifold beneath the carburetor. Why is there condensation? Maybe because the heat risers are cool to the touch even after driving for 4 hours....I know you said the heat risers were clear when you looked at them last week but how do they get clogged in a week? The flap in the air cleaner is opening and closing with the thermostat and even if it weren't, that wouldn't cause cool heat risers. Like I said yesterday, they should be hot as fuck but you insisted otherwise. The one that measures 321* here is the one I can grab and hold onto because it's so cool

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=27

Add to that the fact that the turn signal assembly keeps swiveling around and we intermittently lose our turn signals, and that our alternator can't keep the car idling at a stop light with the headlights on and you're gonna have a bus at your house tonight or tomorrow and we're leaving in our Squareback because this bus is another week or two from ready and this time it has nothing to do with aftermarket parts.


Alternator is the used one you sent. It did seem like it was sucking the idle speed down a couple hundred RPM and you could hear it kick in when that happened but since it didn't cause that issue in the test bus I just figured it was due to the twin batteries- one regular, one deep cycle.

Anyone have any ideas on that?

T/S stalk swiveling must be a worn housing... I put electrical tape under it as a shim and cranked it as tight as it would go. Didn't seem to be swiveling yesterday.

Incidentally, I didn't check the risers last week... I blew through them with compressed air before engine assembly began. I always check them even though I've never seen any actually plug.

I agree with the poster who said it's likely the icing that is causing the stalling with lights on.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
Tram wrote:
…Used blue locktite and a flywheel shim under the inner snap ring for good measure.


How close is the flywheel shim (T1 or T4?) to the ID of the hub? This is a nice little thing to keep in my mental bag of tricks……

Robbie


T3, so T1 also. It's an exact fit.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Wire your intake air preheat so that you are getting hot air all the time. This should be enough to prevent icing.


We actually did that right after posting earlier. It seemed to help for a while and then power seemed to come and go over the next few hours. If we pushed it in 3rd for a mile or two every once in a while or else had to pull a hill in 3rd, power would come back afterward, presumably as at least the exhaust itself would heat things up? But then power would come and go. Same thing with if we stopped.....the manifold would seem to bank heat from the exhaust and we'd run well for a while and then not. Here's a fun vid of us going 48 on a flat road with the pedal to the floor in 4th


Link


It's definitely a stock style exhaust but depending on maker, who knows if the heat riser ports are actually drilled all the way through. We bought a header once that had heat riser flanges that weren't actually drilled all the way into the header tubes. In any case, here's Daniel touching the motor after more than 2 hours of driving.....oddly, this time, the right side was a bit warmer than the left whereas earlier today, the right side was stone cold and the left was hot....Daniel misspeaks when he says "manifold" at the beginning.....he meant "heat riser"


Link


And here's voltage when cruising at 48 mph with only headlights on...taken from charging port so a bit upstream from the battery but still!!!


Link
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Just for fun, what's the voltage at the charging port on the jump seat? Don't forget, with the key on, the isolator is energized and so that port is also then active in the charging system.

Yeah, that voltage is too low, unless that's a super low amp alternator. Even then, something's not right, esp. given that all of the battery cables on both batteries, the ground strap, and the wire going from the alt B+ to the starter terminal 30 are all brand new.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Just for fun, what's the voltage at the charging port on the jump seat? Don't forget, with the key on, the isolator is energized and so that port is also then active in the charging system.

Yeah, that voltage is too low, unless that's a super low amp alternator. Even then, something's not right, esp. given that all of the battery cables on both batteries, the ground strap, and the wire going from the alt B+ to the starter terminal 30 are all brand new.


55 amp Bosch AL82N so it at least began life as a legit item.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Tram wrote:
Just for fun, what's the voltage at the charging port on the jump seat? Don't forget, with the key on, the isolator is energized and so that port is also then active in the charging system.

Yeah, that voltage is too low, unless that's a super low amp alternator. Even then, something's not right, esp. given that all of the battery cables on both batteries, the ground strap, and the wire going from the alt B+ to the starter terminal 30 are all brand new.


55 amp Bosch AL82N so it at least began life as a legit item.


Yup- no argument there. I did think it was a little odd that it would kick in with a loud whirrrr and drag the idle down a couple hundred RPMs but it never gave us the light so, again, I figured it was due to the dual batteries.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:19 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Abscate wrote:
Are you stock exhaust? I bet not.

Most of the after markets connect to the risers but don't provide preheat


Brand new stock exhaust with heater boxes.


Even drilled out, you need to have pressure on one side and low pressure on the other side. Stock system should be fine ..its the long pipe dumping the warm exhaust into the main body of the muffler that the cheap guys don't want to manufacture, but is critical.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:43 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Tram wrote:
Abscate wrote:
Are you stock exhaust? I bet not.

Most of the after markets connect to the risers but don't provide preheat


Brand new stock exhaust with heater boxes.


Even drilled out, you need to have pressure on one side and low pressure on the other side. Stock system should be fine ..its the long pipe dumping the warm exhaust into the main body of the muffler that the cheap guys don't want to manufacture, but is critical.


Well, this is the muffler. Recognize the brand?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Also, as I got down to look at the muffler, I noticed a fair amount of oil had leaked out of our under 1k mile motor overnight....Not sure if laughter or tears is the more appropriate response here as this would be our 2nd oil bomb of a motor from these guys

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Is the distributor functioning correctly? The driving video did not sound right to me, like full advance was not happening.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Manfred58sc wrote:
Is the distributor functioning correctly? The driving video did not sound right to me, like full advance was not happening.


Well, we have it timed to 7.5* BTDC and in the driveway it would give 30* of advance and regularly returned to 7.5* without hanging up. The arm also moved freely and consistently passed "the duck test." ****Edit*** "suck test"....It's a new rebuild from Tim aka tasb and you asking has reminded me that I wrote him about the distributor on Weds. and still haven't heard back. But yes, it's like driving through an enormous flat spot.

That doesn't explain the heat risers and oil leak though unfortunately....


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