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Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads?
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FreeBug
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

Thanks! Food for dreams....
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:09 am    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

Hello again.
When you are living in the US and are not bound to stringent regulations like we are here in Europe (in some area at least) and especially since many of you are living in 2500 – 5000 feet altitude, it has puzzled me a little that so few are considering supercharging or turbo charging their busses.
I know, that is a totally different ball game. That said, I have done it a few times now, and one of the tricks to make it work well seems to be the ability to control air intake temperature. Now on the first couple of attempt I did like everybody else and built a pull through system. It is – exactly that – simple. But is has a couple of downsides that I did not like. So I began to work with blow through instead. That helped me get rid of most of the downsides with supercharging. But two things was still an issue. One was the ability to control power and not get a slight kanguru effect when you went lightly on the loud pedal. The other was the draw of the charger when not in use.

At some point, maybe 6 years ago a guy began visiting my shop every once in a while. I first built a 145 hp 2054 type one to him, but he sold the car and engine about a year later, because he wanted a Ghia. This time he wanted something else. So I built a 1600 type 1 engine which was prepared for charging on the inside. Stock cam, detailed heads (much similar to the ACN L3 heads) 8-1 CR. Stock 34 mm Pict3 carb modified for blow through and with a 28 mm venturi. Stock look muffler but gutted and with equal length primaries. Large I.D. end pipes which turbo Thomas made for us. We used an M45 charger from a Mercedes E180 Kompressor and a small intercooler from a Peugeot I think.
In the begining we had the beforementhioned “problems” with the charger drawing too much power on cruise. But then this guy came up with a brilliant idea. That was to recycle the air from the load valve back into the intake of the charger basicly like it is normally done on the Merc and also the Rover Mini, BUT instead of having an “automatic” load valve that bases its position on boost/vacuum, he made it cable controlled so it works with the throttle cable position. This little mod works awesome. Now you can control the power you want nice and smooth with no vibration.
I remember the first time we had it on the rolls it pulled 85 hp and 150 Nm torque. Nothing to write home about, but it was also raw at the time, and it was without intercooler. At the end of the first afternoon we had it up to 102ish hp and 175 Nm at 9psi. boost. Then later when the IC was added it was trimmed a little more and the final result became 112 hp and 180 Nm torque at 10 psi.
I have since then built 3 bus engines over the same idea, two with 1680 cc displacement and one 1776. The 1776 has never been on the rolls but the second 1680 which has a CB 2280 cam and a slightly modded BAS customsport muffler. It pulls 118 hp and 185 Nm at only 7 psi boost. It is super strong and runs very cool.

The performance numbers themselves do not really tell the whole story, unless you are used to drive with a force fed engine. The lower to midrange torque is phenominal, almost diesel like. And that is what makes them interesting for a bus, at least in my eyes.

Of course there is also turbocharging, which I like just as well. But due to the legislation around here it is easier to legalize an engine with a supercharger.

The reason to me thinking in these terms is that when you live in that altitude the power reduction of a NA engine is soon 10 – 15 even 20%. When you force feed the reduction is much smaller, maybe 5% Then you can keep you power reserves when you climb hills up there.

Just an idea, but food for thought.
T
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Vagtastic Van
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:25 am    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

That sounds interesting as the M45 is easy to get hold of. Do you have any pics of the install?

Thanks!
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

Jetting Change update: Aug. 15th 2017
Dellorto 36mm drla's rebuilt in May 2017
Miles on the engine as of Aug. 15 1017 is 18212 miles.

This Video was made when the engine was newly rebuilt in 2013 Video.
1800cc Type 1 Engine Build Sheet: Special thanks to everyone here on the Samba that participated.
Machine Work: Local shops,
Misc: Parts and service: Bug Germinators, North Bend OR and 2nd Street Foreign Car Service Coos Bay Oregon.
Engine Case: 1971 VW Bus AS-41 Magnesium, Inserted for 10mm studs, Full Flow oil return and block off, Stock 1600 Cylinder Openings.
88mm Bore, 74mm Stroke,
Dual 36 DRLA Dellorto Carburetors,
Cam Web-Cam 163 with 284' 250' at .050" and .422" Valve Lift with 1.1:1 Rockers, Web-Cam 163 Profile
Heads German 113 Dual Port cut for 90.5mm cylinders (with step), 3 angle valve job and port matched using stock VW 35.5mm(used german intake) x32mm(new exhaust valves) with new Single HD Valve Springs,
Solid Rocker shaft from CB-Performance, 1.1:1 Ratio stock VW rockers,
CB-Performance Elephant Feet Adjusters,
Bug Pack Aluminum Push Rods (Stock Length)
Push Rod Tubes are CB Performance 1565 Large ID Racing,
Lifters are cb-performance 1537 UltraLightWeight 28mm,
Valves Springs Single HD Racing. Valve guides Stock VW
CR 8.5:1
Rods 5.325" H Beam Racing Rods from Aircooled.Net,
Crankshaft: 74mm Counterweighted 4340 Forged from Aircooled.Net,
Piston and Cylinders 88mm AA ThickWall from Aircooled.Net
Flywheel Stock VW Surfaced and drilled for 8 dowels,
Pressure Plate: Sachs 200mm Porsche style 1971 and up CB-1324,
Throw Bearing OEM,
Disc Kush Lock Solid,
Scat Aluminum degree pulley, Everything Balanced by part and Dynamically with clutch and flywheel mounted to the crank,
Electric 12 volt Fuel Pump: 3 1/2 lb Rotary CB-Performance 3193,
Oil Pump 26mm Schadek with Empi Steel Full Flow Cover Plate,
Oil lines and remote filter CB-Performance 1732,
Oil Filter VW Rabbit Type Mann W719/5 Bosch 3400
Castrol GTX 5W30 motor oil with Lucas TB Plus Zinc Oil Additive, Mobile 1 full synthetic 0W40,
German Bosch .009 with points, Mechanical Advance Distributor set for Max advance of 33', 30',
Bosch Blue Coil,
Empi Spark Wires,
Spark Plugs are Bosch Super Plus WR8AC+ 14mm X 1/2",
Motorola 12 volt Alternator with Aftermarket External Regulator,
Intake Manifolds: CB performance off-set with hex bar linkage Linkage wore out and had to be up-dated using rocker arm parts for bearings in it. CB Performance air-cleaners.
Current Air Correction are : 1.80
Mains: 1.32 1.35
Idle: .60 tried .55 until today went back to .60
Venturi: 30mm
Extractor, BugPack 4 into 1 1 1/2" single Empi Muffler", Stock Heater boxes.
_________________
1971 VW Bus Sundial Camper, 1960 VW Beetle, 1988 Porsche 924s
Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? And 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse And Porsche 924s.


Last edited by Danwvw on Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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nsracing
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

sweet engine!
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

60 to 50 or 50 to 60 is a 40% change in fuel. Idle jet changes should be made in increments of 2, not 10. Both could be off by the same amount, one too lean and one too rich.

It's like going from 11:1 to 15.5:1, LOL
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FreeBug
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
Hello again.
When you are living in the US and are not bound to stringent regulations like we are here in Europe (in some area at least) and especially since many of you are living in 2500 – 5000 feet altitude, it has puzzled me a little that so few are considering supercharging or turbo charging their busses.
I know, that is a totally different ball game. That said, I have done it a few times now, and one of the tricks to make it work well seems to be the ability to control air intake temperature. Now on the first couple of attempt I did like everybody else and built a pull through system. It is – exactly that – simple. But is has a couple of downsides that I did not like. So I began to work with blow through instead. That helped me get rid of most of the downsides with supercharging. But two things was still an issue. One was the ability to control power and not get a slight kanguru effect when you went lightly on the loud pedal. The other was the draw of the charger when not in use.

At some point, maybe 6 years ago a guy began visiting my shop every once in a while. I first built a 145 hp 2054 type one to him, but he sold the car and engine about a year later, because he wanted a Ghia. This time he wanted something else. So I built a 1600 type 1 engine which was prepared for charging on the inside. Stock cam, detailed heads (much similar to the ACN L3 heads) 8-1 CR. Stock 34 mm Pict3 carb modified for blow through and with a 28 mm venturi. Stock look muffler but gutted and with equal length primaries. Large I.D. end pipes which turbo Thomas made for us. We used an M45 charger from a Mercedes E180 Kompressor and a small intercooler from a Peugeot I think.
In the begining we had the beforementhioned “problems” with the charger drawing too much power on cruise. But then this guy came up with a brilliant idea. That was to recycle the air from the load valve back into the intake of the charger basicly like it is normally done on the Merc and also the Rover Mini, BUT instead of having an “automatic” load valve that bases its position on boost/vacuum, he made it cable controlled so it works with the throttle cable position. This little mod works awesome. Now you can control the power you want nice and smooth with no vibration.
I remember the first time we had it on the rolls it pulled 85 hp and 150 Nm torque. Nothing to write home about, but it was also raw at the time, and it was without intercooler. At the end of the first afternoon we had it up to 102ish hp and 175 Nm at 9psi. boost. Then later when the IC was added it was trimmed a little more and the final result became 112 hp and 180 Nm torque at 10 psi.
I have since then built 3 bus engines over the same idea, two with 1680 cc displacement and one 1776. The 1776 has never been on the rolls but the second 1680 which has a CB 2280 cam and a slightly modded BAS customsport muffler. It pulls 118 hp and 185 Nm at only 7 psi boost. It is super strong and runs very cool.

The performance numbers themselves do not really tell the whole story, unless you are used to drive with a force fed engine. The lower to midrange torque is phenominal, almost diesel like. And that is what makes them interesting for a bus, at least in my eyes.

Of course there is also turbocharging, which I like just as well. But due to the legislation around here it is easier to legalize an engine with a supercharger.

The reason to me thinking in these terms is that when you live in that altitude the power reduction of a NA engine is soon 10 – 15 even 20%. When you force feed the reduction is much smaller, maybe 5% Then you can keep you power reserves when you climb hills up there.

Just an idea, but food for thought.
T


I've thought about it, even though I'm in one of those "super stringent" places. I have an extra rear bus apron to cut to put a turbo in above the oil level, but keep it "outside" of the engine compartment air. I put in oil squirters behind the pistons, was given a KKK T03, for a 1680 with a 2231 cam, semi-hemi cut, but then 2007 came around, and gas prices skyrocketed here, I shelved the project. I have since come to the conclusion that it's too much inertia, too quick for the brakes/chassis, in the twisties. I find N/A gets my knuckles white enough, thank you.

-I am a scadypants when it comes to crashing, BTDT.
-My chassis is all stock 1973, and I plan keeping it that way.

But it's fun to think about... Wink
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
60 to 50 or 50 to 60 is a 40% change in fuel. Idle jet changes should be made in increments of 2, not 10. Both could be off by the same amount, one too lean and one too rich.
It's like going from 11:1 to 15.5:1, LOL

Good catch, Yeah, actually they were .55 to .60 on the idle jets, it helped though. Think I have some .57's but what I want to try is some real dellorto 36-28mm venturi's which I am sure will change everything.
When I looked at a plug on this engine it was burning very clean and white probably too lean. The real symptom is a transition problem it bucks a bit during transition. Better now. When I open the throttle more during transition now it quits bucking before it didn't. Still bucking though during transition with minimum throttle to maintain that RPM. The bucking with this change moved from about 45 mph down to about 40 mph 4th gear. Probably improved from 2500 RPM down to 2200. No real torque there though!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? And 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse And Porsche 924s.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

190 or 200 air next with the 55idle
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Rebuilt VW Heads Arrived from the Shop to fix #2 Thread Problem Reply with quote

Thanks for the Reply John, I may get there but probably will try the 28mm venturi's first if anything. Actually, the stumble seems to have gone away with the current jetting and new spark plugs at least in all but #2 cylinders.

A bit of an Up Date here on the Bus Engine. Still running fine, Found another pair of 113-101-375A used German heads that have good spark plug threads.
Original Heads were 53.4cc, The Replacement Heads 51.6cc The Replacement Heads have been Ported and opened with all new Exhaust Valves, HD Springs, and Chrome Moly Retainers. The shop cleaned them up very nicely and did a nice job repairing exhaust studs. I am very pleased with them.
Figuring with the .022" Deck I measured before the CR would move up to 9.1:1 with these heads. If I added .010" cylinder shim the CR would become 8.9:1. Will try to take more accurate Deck Height measurements while I have it down.

Original Heads:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It's been 5 years now but have some replacement heads ready:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Replacement Heads Intake Ports:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Replacement Head Exhaust Port:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Replacement Heads under the valve cover:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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1971 VW Bus Sundial Camper, 1960 VW Beetle, 1988 Porsche 924s
Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? And 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse And Porsche 924s.
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Brian_e
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

The new replacement heads don't appear to have any port work done to them. Hopefully they at least blended the bowls. You should pull the valves and check them along with the valve job.

With your displacement, largish cam and carbs, you should have fully ported heads. A well done set of stock valve heads and manifolds should be able to flow an easy 135+ cfm @28" and .450" lift. Stock heads will barely flow 105cfm at the same lift.

Power is in the heads!!

Brian
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UK Luke 72
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

Short side has definitely seen a sanding drum.
I wouldn't like to pass comment as to whether any improvement has been made Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

UK Luke 72 wrote:
Short side has definitely seen a sanding drum.
I wouldn't like to pass comment as to whether any improvement has been made Smile


Maybe enough to knock off the casting marks, but not enough for any improvement.

Brian
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

The Heads are pretty much identical to the first ones. Same Port Match Done. Yeah, I don't see that there is any chamber work or port work on them. As I understand it, for a bus you don't do port work. My guy does a nice valve Job, The valve stems are all within 1/32". "Brian_e" Not sure I know what blending the bowls is? Kind of blew the budget on the heads at $120 for the used Heads and $400 at the shop still not bad considering they got Port Matched, HD Singles, New Exhaust Valves & Guides etc...

It will be sometime before I get to putting them on the bus though. Busy with the garden.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? And 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse And Porsche 924s.


Last edited by Danwvw on Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

Correct porting will benefit any engine. Bus engines are not excluded. Here was a quick example I did a while back. The bowls are the same in dual port heads.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=682243&highlight=

Brian
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject: Evaluating a valve job Reply with quote

Here are the photos with an Intake and Exhaust Valve removed. Evaluate a valve job.

Intake Port View1:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Intake Port View2:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Intake Valve Removed:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Intake Valve Edge:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Intake Porting:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Exhaust Valve:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Exhaust Valve Guide:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Exhaust Valve Port:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

Those exhaust guides, were they replaced? Or just knurl the inside to take up the slop
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:54 pm    Post subject: Evaluating a valve job Reply with quote

Supposedly the exhaust guides were replaced but would they look like that inside if new?
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Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? And 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse And Porsche 924s.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/1996/07/valve-guide-repair-options/

Read about it....I would be asking the machinist what they did, not the front counter, the person who did them
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Building a 74 mm Stroke by 88 mm bore with 042 or 044 heads? Reply with quote

No bowl blend, port match looks shitty, and those seats don't appear to be reground.

Hope you paid no more than $20 for that port match.

Heads are one of the most important parts of a build. You gotta spend your money where it counts. I'd rather have less cam and better heads than vice-versa. The first option will likely have better VE than the second. Send them to Brian so he can set you up right. Otherwise, you're asking for more engine issues down the road.
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