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Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda)
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leathersmyth
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

Okay, Here is a question for the ones with knowledge... Smile On 85 stock westfalia,I have a hot start issue. In the past if turn off and go restart it will need to sit 10/15 minutes before restarting. Not all the times but many times is the case. Have replaced fuel pump.fuel pressure unit,fuel filter,02 sensor and could go on with list. I also have a switch to the fuel pump (tied to the ground of pump) that i flip if parking and leaving anywhere that might walk away by itself. By fluke i discovered if i go to start and won't start,I flip the fuel pump switch off turn the key and it fires right up. It dies because fuel pump not on but then will fire right up after switching pump on. What do people thing is correlation with flipping the fuel pump off and it starting right up as if nothing was wrong.
Thought would see what others think.....

I also posted question on fb.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

For decades, bad grounds have done strange things to old VW's.......

Read this thread......

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

Dave
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leathersmyth
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

Thanks but I have cleaned and redone all the grounds on van.
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

leathersmyth wrote:
Thanks but I have cleaned and redone all the grounds on van.


Meter tested or cleaned and refastened?

Dave
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Ahwahnee
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

leathersmyth wrote:
...Have replaced fuel pump.fuel pressure unit,fuel filter,02 sensor and could go on with list...


Does that list include the Temp 2 sensor?

If not - it is easy to check with an ohmmeter. In fact, I would check it anyway even if it was replaced.

A failed sensor can be telling the ECU that the engine is cold and invoke a start mixture that is unsuitable for a hot engine. Engine will eventually start after waiting for things to cool down.

Interesting phenomenon with the fuel pump kill switch - perhaps having the fuel pump off negates the cold start attempt?
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

Put a pressure gauge on your fuel rail and see what the pressure does after shut down. You symptoms are classic for leaky injectors.
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takeiteasy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

I have an '85 with this issue sometimes. I i stall out or restart hot it will have trouble. Occasional flooding, i can disconnect fuel pump crank and get it started. I have not looked closes at the AAR

02 works
Temp 2 works
AFM rebuilt
Grounds cleaned
Wiring intact
New distributor
TPS set
Mr Injector cleaned injectors
Vacuum pressure stable
Fuel pressure in check, new regulator
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

takeiteasy wrote:
I have an '85 with this issue sometimes. I i stall out or restart hot it will have trouble. Occasional flooding, i can disconnect fuel pump crank and get it started. I have not looked closes at the AAR

02 works
Temp 2 works
AFM rebuilt
Grounds cleaned
Wiring intact
New distributor
TPS set
Mr Injector cleaned injectors
Vacuum pressure stable
Fuel pressure in check, new regulator


It is doubtful if the AAR would enter into this at all. It is pretty inert once the engine warms and even with a cold engine only passes metered air thus having almost no effect on the mixture.
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takeiteasy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

It is doubtful if the AAR would enter into this at all. It is pretty inert once the engine warms and even with a cold engine only passes metered air thus having almost no effect on the mixture.[/quote]

Agree, just trying to rule out what it is not.
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Bills85Westy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

i experienced similar hot start issues with my 85 Doka. The truck had been completely rebuilt including all of the items noted above. E.g. Injectors, grounds, etc. I was never able to track down the issue.

Not helpful I know, but I share your frustration when one of these elusive gremlins pops up.
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leathersmyth
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

Temp 2 sensor has been replaced.
I will see about the pressure test of injectors. Those have Never been touched as far as i know.
Biggest question is why does stopping power to fuel pump allow it to start. I have always wondered about a airlock or something like that causing the non start,but that is just in back of mind.
If injectors are the issue is there a better brand than others? (short cutting on finding the best ones.. Smile )
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leathersmyth
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

I have not put a meter on the grounds. Replaced all the ends or stripped them down to clean brass/metal so there was nothing but clean grounds. It was a issue from when first got the van. Not a Big deal most of times. Will put meter on grounds out of curiosity but they are all clean as a whistle....
Biggest problem (with not starting right up)is when ferry lane moves and you are sitting there trying to start or you stop at customs,they tell you to head through and you sit there cranking hoping van will start. Smile
the switching off of fuel pump to allow to start is the main question. Would rather not have that added step but it does take some stress out knowing that by throwing switch will allow it to start.... Very Happy
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Hammy1
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:23 am    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

Here's the hot start issue I had with my 85'. It ended up being a worn relay.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=513118&highlight=

Regards'
Jon h.
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takeiteasy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

In my feeble opinion it has something to do with the amount of air entering the system... I can't track it down either...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:58 am    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

Anybody out there have any other idead?
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ohhorob
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

leathersmyth wrote:
Temp 2 sensor has been replaced.


Sometimes replacing temp2 is not enough.

The ECU increases fuel injection over normal amounts based on the resistance it sees at it's terminals. A hot engine should present very little resistance at the ECU.

That resistance should be as close to the temp2 resistance as possible, but there are some other places that add more. If those places are bad enough it can make the ECU see a warm engine instead of a hot one. It adds more fuel than necessary and that might be too much to start.

When the engine is fully hot, measure the resistance at the connector in the wiring harness (Pins 2 & 7, where it plugs into the ECU). Refer to bentley or Digijet FI for proper temperature vs Ohms chart, but if your hot engine is reading much more than 200 or 300 ohms that might be worth investigating.

It's only third hand, but some have claimed to get faulty Temp2 sensors out of the box. If you wanted to verify operation, I've seen folks use a kitchen thermometer and a pot of cooking oil, taking resistance & temperature measurements as it heats up.

More likely a higher than expected resistance is caused by corrosion problems in your 30+ year old wiring..

- ground (left cylinder head)
- temp2 connector (contacts and/or crimps)
- connector wire (corrosion up under the insulator; at temp2 end or ground end)
- ECU connector (poor contact, or corroded contacts)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: Hot start issue on a 85 westfalia (kinda) Reply with quote

I don't know if this will help you in any way - but try bypassing the Idle Control Unit when you're having starting issues. Mine had blown capacitors in it. Once replaced I have not had any starting issues. It took me over two years to find that bugger! A month at the shop and they couldn't figure it out either.
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