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Teelinger
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2016
Posts: 35
Location: Seattle
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 Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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For those who have done this upgrade with Small Cars (SC) system, what is the AC temperature taken at the center vent when set to the coolest setting? And what was the ambient temperature when you took the reading?
I recently had SC do this upgrade for me ($$$$) prior to a trip from Seattle to Moab to Yellowstone and back and the results were... Less than stellar. Granted the ambient temps outside were hitting triple digits during parts of the trip, but I barely used it because it never cooled the van off.
And that doesn't even start to describe the lack of quality control in the install and quality of the parts as I had to go back prior to my trip no less than 3 times to address issues.
Before I go back a 4th time, I wanted to get comparative data on operating temps to get a better sense of how off my system is.
I have read all the recent threads about the DIY installs of this system, but has anyone else had problems with their system installed by SC?
At this point I really regret the decision to upgrade with SC. Needless to say, once I get this resolved I won't be using SC products or service ever again.
James
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James Tee
86 Syncro GL with Pop-top, Weekender and Subie conversion
73 BMW 2002 |
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kourt
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Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1944
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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You'll have to tell us more about your van to paint the picture correctly.
Are your windows tinted?
Do you have a tintop or a Westy?
What color is your van?
Do you have good door and window seals?
Do you have good floor insulation?
Do you have any measures taken to prevent hot foot?
Do you have a heater core shutoff?
Do you have a working Stage 2 fan that draws air over the condenser when the AC compressor is running?
Do you have a parallel flow condenser?
Do you have an engine upgrade that may result in better overall compressor performance?
If you expect good performance in any 90+ degree weather, your "total package" (not just your AC install) needs to include most if not all of the above improvements.
Let us know what you have.
kourt |
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Teelinger
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2016
Posts: 35
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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Thanks Kourt!
Answers inline... Note I am a newbie and have owned my van for 6+ months and am answering as best as I can.
Are your windows tinted?
Yes
Do you have a tintop or a Westy?
Westy
What color is your van?
Dark metallic grey, both body and top
Do you have good door and window seals?
Yes
Do you have good floor insulation?
I do not believe so. Currently the interior is rhino lined with thick rubber flooring throughout. I'll take a picture and post later tonight. The walls of the van have been sound proofed but I believe they have not been insulated.
Do you have any measures taken to prevent hot foot?
I'm unfamiliar with this term, what does it mean?
Do you have a heater core shutoff?
I'm unsure. Would this have been part of the SC install? I do have an aux propex (sp?) heater and believe there is a shutoff associated with it.
Do you have a working Stage 2 fan that draws air over the condenser when the AC compressor is running?
Unsure, is this part of the Vintage Air unit SC installs? I am running a rebuilt Subaru compressor.
Do you have a parallel flow condenser?
Unsure, I am running a new standard vanagon condenser
Do you have an engine upgrade that may result in better overall compressor performance?
Subaru Forester 2004 2.5 engine
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James Tee
86 Syncro GL with Pop-top, Weekender and Subie conversion
73 BMW 2002 |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:06 am Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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Some of the questions will be answered by knowing if you had A/C in the Van before installing the Small car unit. Radiator fan for example.
I blow wet bulb 38* out of my "inferior" stock rear A/C Evaporator. Ambient was 81*and air entering the Evaporator was 65*
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=20
There is chatter that the smallcar unit is too small to cool the entire Van adequately.
Take a wet bulb reading on a more mild day, maybe hang a curtain to isolate the cold air in the front.
A/C units can only pull down x number of degrees no matter what the interior temps are. Generally a 30-40 degree drop. So if it were 100* you will get 60-70 degree air out if the vent. As the interior temps drop and you are recirculating interior cooled air the vent temps will drop too. But the unit needs to put out enough btu's to make headway against extreme temoeratures.
The stock rear mounted VW evaporator is HUGE!!! As compared to other dash installed units.
Dave
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
Last edited by djkeev on Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Teelinger
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2016
Posts: 35
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:11 am Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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No prior AC. Vanagon condensor and subie compressor added at time of install with the rest of the SC kit.
James
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James Tee
86 Syncro GL with Pop-top, Weekender and Subie conversion
73 BMW 2002 |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:25 am Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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I'd hazard a guess that it is a parallel flow condensor then.
No high speed radiator cooling fan. Unless they got one out of a wreck and the wiring to go with it.
Heater core shut off not needed for small car provides a new one.
Hot foot is radiator air passing above the spare tire and heating up the front passenger area to uncomfortable temperatures.
Mine was an OVEN until I insulated the entire front area.
The most intense heat is the gas pedal and shift lever area.
We could barely ride in the Van in intense heat!
Some have wondered if the Subaru compressors struggle handling the volume of refrigerant a Van requires with its front to rear lines.
I am guessing they put in r134a refrigerant, it works but there are better options.
Seek out the RedTek thread here.
JudoJeff recently put in the Subaru and Smallcars A/C. He runs RedTek, he seems very happy with the system.
Dave
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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ThankYouJerry
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2012
Posts: 2271
Location: Shakedown Street
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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When I contemplated Small Car in dash a/c a few years ago, I sent them an email asking a few questions, including: "What is the lowest temp you've seen at the vent running at max a/c?". This is the response I received from them:
1. Installing the dash AC will eliminate the rear AC.
2. We charge 23 hours labor time.
3. The lowest temp we’ve seen is 55 degree F.
Mao
Online Sales Manager
Small Car Performance
1403 34th Avenue E
Fife, WA 98424
Phone: 253.473-2474
Fax: 253.473.8573
M-F 9am-5:30pm PST
I decided to pass and restored my OEM a/c.
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1.8T, Auto w/3.27 R&P + Peloquin TBD |
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JudoJeff
Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013
Posts: 1179
Location: Near Springfield, MA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:13 am Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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I get 44 degrees all the time. At test install, got 32. I also designed a rear under bed setup, go read the thread for the information. Note that I haven't built it yet, no need.
There are a lot of variables in building a system, no quick answers....
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________________________________________
1989 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Burned up on 7/31/16.
1987 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig & Rebuilt, sold
1986 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig Sold May 10, 2021
1999 Ford GTRV Westfalia camper (30% bigger Westy layout) |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17124
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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I am running a vintage air unit that I installed myself. I used Blake Heinlein's how to install one in a vanagon. I did make some changes, but more in the wiring than anything else.
While I had the dash out, I insulated the entire underside of the dashboard. I also insulated the entire front firewall including the radiator tunnel. I also added some heat reflective clear tint to the windshield and the front door windows.
Cloudy, night, or rain, it will freeze the front passengers out. Driving into the sun the AC keeps you comfortable up front. Beyond the front seats, it is feeling warm. When the mrs. goes to make a sandwich, I aim the center vents down the aisle and have a 12 volt oscillating fan with a tarp clip that we can point into the kitchen area.
Does it turn the van into a meat locker? No. Does it allow you to drive at highway speeds in the dead of summer with the windows up comfortably? Yes. Sorry no vent temps. I am running a radiator fan and shroud from a 90 vanagon that had factory air. Rad fan is on low when the compressor is engaged. Rad is on medium when the ac pressure trips the hi pressure switch switch.
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djkeev
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17124
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:40 am Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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There is a corellation between the low side pressure and the evaporator core temp. The vintage air is designed to run a lower pressure on the suction side than most modern day systems. It's possible, your system is overcharged. I would review the vintage air documentation to familiarize yourself with their system. Then, if you don't have the AC equipment, find a shop that specializes in AC repair. Have an intelligent conversation with them and have them check it out. I have been running R134 since it was introduced. I have converted systems from r12 to R134 and have actually been impressed how well they can work. The trick seems to be not over charging the system and good air flow across the condenser.
I have not used redtek and don't believe I can legally install it through my business. In the days, we used to worry about contaminating our recovery equipment with these alternate gasses. Not so much a problem any more.
One problem I ran into with my TDI compressor was that it is a variable displacement compressor. New cars are using these types to lessen the clutch cycling. I had to defeat the valve in mine to get the low side where it was maintained solely by the expansion valve. Do the newer Subaru's have. Something similar?
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Teelinger
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2016
Posts: 35
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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Another question: should the radiator fan turn on as soon as the AC knob is turned and air starts to flow out of the vents? Mine currently does not.
James
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James Tee
86 Syncro GL with Pop-top, Weekender and Subie conversion
73 BMW 2002 |
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djkeev
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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I've had to replace 2 of the low speed resistors so far this year on family vans.
so far vancafe has the best deal (I've found).
http://www.van-cafe.com/fan-resistor-for-vanagon-with-ac-aftermarket
you can test if your fan will run on low speed by pulling the lower grill,
pulling the rad fan switch plug off the switch and using a heavy wire jumper the terminals in the plug.. of the 3 terminals, 2 will make the fan go on high, 2 will go on low and 2 won't do anything..
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luVWagn
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Joined: February 21, 2008
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Location: Snoqualmie (WA)
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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| MarkWard wrote: |
| One problem I ran into with my TDI compressor was that it is a variable displacement compressor. New cars are using these types to lessen the clutch cycling. I had to defeat the valve in mine to get the low side where it was maintained solely by the expansion valve. |
Mark, do you have details into how to identify this issue, and how to defeat it? My AHU TDI has an AC compressor on it, not sure if it was a TDI specific compressor or fairly generic compressor, and my system doesn't get cold enough.
It is also using a stock Vanagon condenser, which may be insufficient for the R134A that is in the system - but before I swap that out to a cross-flow condenser (unfortunately GW is out-of-stock), I want to make sure my compressor is going to work properly.
I also am not sure it is putting the rad-fan on low when compressor runs - i *do* know that it cycles to medium or high periodically, especially when stopped in traffic and AC is engaged.
Thanks!
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MarkWard
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Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:34 am Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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The modification is straight forward. The end cover and the reed plate need to be removed. The valve is in the center of the reed plate assembly. Some have removed the valve and replaced with a proper diameter bolt. I could not find a bolt in the shop and decided to gut the valve, drill and tap for a set screw. I reused the compressor gaskets. You can search the TDI website for more info. Later TDIs used an external valve run by a computer. Not sure what you have.
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Zeitgeist 13
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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Hmmm...I'm getting ready to charge up the A/C in my ALH build. Is this mod to the compressor a mandatory thing, or just a "nice to have" tweak?
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MarkWard
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Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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The valve is a bypass to the reed plate. It is mechanical. If your low side pressures are to spec and you have good vent temps, this mod is probably not required.
The vintage air uses an old style expansion valve, not the later "H" type. They spec out a very low side pressure to achieve good evap core temps. I could not get the low side pressure down enough to get good cooling using the stock ALH compressor.
All manufacturers were trying to come up with ways to lessen the compressor clutch cycling. This was just one method.
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Abscate
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 12:04 am Post subject: Re: Question about Small Car in-dash AC |
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| ThankYouJerry wrote: |
When I contemplated Small Car in dash a/c a few years ago, I sent them an email asking a few questions, including: "What is the lowest temp you've seen at the vent running at max a/c?". This is the response I received from them:
1. Installing the dash AC will eliminate the rear AC.
2. We charge 23 hours labor time.
3. The lowest temp we’ve seen is 55 degree F.
Mao
Online Sales Manager
Small Car Performance
1403 34th Avenue E
Fife, WA 98424
Phone: 253.473-2474
Fax: 253.473.8573
M-F 9am-5:30pm PST
I decided to pass and restored my OEM a/c. |
n
The right question here I see “what is the temperature differential seen?” Not the actual temperature.
This has to be measured equilibrated, With compressor at 100% capacity, typically 1500 engine rpm, recirc on and after20 minutes operation for reference
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ALIKA T3
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