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Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera
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Tram
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
Without going back and reading 8 pages of this, is the alternator internally regulated? A really f#cked mechanical regulator could do this. Is it possible that the brushes are hanging up in the brush holders or are worn past their usable life? Maybe an electrical connection is just loose somewhere. If an external regulator maybe something is just plain wired wrong, like the charge light is wired into the oil pressure switch or something else equally bizarre.


It's internally regulated and ran fine on another car up until May when I pulled that engine before selling the car. I mailed this alternator/fan assembly from NYC to Oregon and per Tram the box was pretty well beat up upon arrival and my welded/balanced Berg fan was all bent up. So maybe a disgruntled UPS guy kicked it around the back of his truck a few times and something ist kaputt.


No charging system warning light though, and no dead batteries. I'll pull the fuse for the isolator solenoid when I get the courage to get back to this and see whether that gets us a cup of coffee and a sandwich or not. I actually was doing some reading on what lil -jinx was saying a couple posts up and through all the usual forum argument of "yes- it's- fine- no- it's- not" on an RV forum it appears that the type of isolator I installed may or may not cause issues with an internally regulated alternator since the solenoid is engaged continuously with the key on. It "thunks" pretty loud, and that's gotta translate into some amps.

I'm making an idea/ opinion collection right now. I'm leaning more towards it's a two battery system issue somewhere rather than an alternator issue.

http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/76484-Wh...r-solenoid

Basically, in my mind, what we have is a glorified starter solenoid.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
.. and it's not "cutting in and out" rapidly... it'll stay "in" for several minutes, then out for five or maybe longer, then it may kick back in. It stays "in" with headlights on. It just really seems to bog the engine at idle way more than I think it oughta........

There isn't a fridge or something connected to the second battery is there?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Tram wrote:
.. and it's not "cutting in and out" rapidly... it'll stay "in" for several minutes, then out for five or maybe longer, then it may kick back in. It stays "in" with headlights on. It just really seems to bog the engine at idle way more than I think it oughta........

There isn't a fridge or something connected to the second battery is there?


The OE fridge is, but I don't think it's on. Fan isn't running.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

UPS=damaged freight ( I have not used them in 10 years). Sounds like damaged internal VR . I assume all grounds are good (including a ground from the Alternator to the chassis ) ? 48 mph in 4th gear would be like 2400rpm, I do not see how it would be possible to go that slow in 4th and maintain the minimum 3000rpm's to avoid lugging. The performance problem should have pushed them into 3rd gear in order to keep the rpm's up. A lugged engine with Chinese or Mexican bearings is gonner. I bet you find a beat Thrust bearing.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Ok, for the sake of clarity......We didn't drive 1000 miles at 48 mph in 4th.

When we couldn't go above 48 in 4th, we stayed in 3rd b/w 40 and 45 with the flashers on (65 mph road). This was a bit trying b/c at 45, our engine is screaming to be shifted, which is consistent with the VW recommended point. Other than maybe downhill on overrun, I don't see our motor going above 45 in 3rd without a problem.

The video of us driving at 48 was to prove a point about what was happening in a given moment and is an example of how underpowered we were in general. In other words, I couldn't go above 48 in 4th at that time on a flat road and I once again downshifted. Later, I upshfifted to 4th and could go 60, then I could only go 55, other times I couldn't get much above 45 on roads where 60-65 should have been possible. Ultimately, we moved b/w 3rd and 4th as the engine "told" us to. In introducing the voltage video on page 7, Jessica (neena) should have written 58 in 4th, not 48.

I feel like I have to prove I know how to drive or whatever, but I see how the blame game goes now. I’m pissed off b/c we don’t have our bus and I blamed the builder (who is part of Team Tram) who in turn said we must have overheated the motor (even though you could practically store your ice cream next to it) but now I must have lugged it, but maybe there's the shitty parts, or maybe we’re just cursed.

How do we know that there wasn't a bad thrust bearing to begin with? Or that the machinist didn't mess up the thrust surface of the case, or that his line bore bar isn't worn? Maybe the builder messed up when putting the first crucial 500 miles on the motor.....I'm not saying anyone did any of these things but unless the NSA is keeping tabs on our motor and is willing to share the data, there's not going to be a time, date, rpm, speed, temperature, or cause stamp on whatever Tram finds.


Bottom line for me: Tram didn’t build this motor, but his assistant did. However, Tram takes responsibility for whatever happened, regardless of the cause. While I was a dick to him in person today, I regret it b/c upon reflection, I realize he’s really going out of his way for us and really wants to make things right.

If anyone wants to speculate about what happened, do it in PMs. Feel free to tell me I don't know how to drive or that Tram sucks or that neena secretly filled the tank with moonshine, just not on this thread.

Otherwise, Tcash is gonna get mad at me again on PM and tell me to start a feedback post.

Sorry Tcash!!

Can we move on to the electrical shit now?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Ok, for the sake of clarity......We didn't drive 1000 miles at 48 mph in 4th.

When we couldn't go above 48 in 4th, we stayed in 3rd b/w 40 and 45 with the flashers on (65 mph road). This was a bit trying b/c at 45, our engine is screaming to be shifted, which is consistent with the VW recommended point. Other than maybe downhill on overrun, I don't see our motor going above 45 in 3rd without a problem.

The video of us driving at 48 was to prove a point about what was happening in a given moment and is an example of how underpowered we were in general. In other words, I couldn't go above 48 in 4th at that time on a flat road and I once again downshifted. Later, I upshfifted to 4th and could go 60, then I could only go 55, other times I couldn't get much above 45 on roads where 60-65 should have been possible. Ultimately, we moved b/w 3rd and 4th as the engine "told" us to. In introducing the voltage video on page 7, Jessica (neena) should have written 58 in 4th, not 48.

I feel like I have to prove I know how to drive or whatever, but I see how the blame game goes now. I’m pissed off b/c we don’t have our bus and I blamed the builder (who is part of Team Tram) who in turn said we must have overheated the motor (even though you could practically store your ice cream next to it) but now I must have lugged it, but maybe there's the shitty parts, or maybe we’re just cursed.

How do we know that there wasn't a bad thrust bearing to begin with? Or that the machinist didn't mess up the thrust surface of the case, or that his line bore bar isn't worn? Maybe the builder messed up when putting the first crucial 500 miles on the motor.....I'm not saying anyone did any of these things but unless the NSA is keeping tabs on our motor and is willing to share the data, there's not going to be a time, date, rpm, speed, temperature, or cause stamp on whatever Tram finds.


Bottom line for me: Tram didn’t build this motor, but his assistant did. However, Tram takes responsibility for whatever happened, regardless of the cause. While I was a dick to him in person today, I regret it b/c upon reflection, I realize he’s really going out of his way for us and really wants to make things right.

If anyone wants to speculate about what happened, do it in PMs. Feel free to tell me I don't know how to drive or that Tram sucks or that neena secretly filled the tank with moonshine, just not on this thread.

Otherwise, Tcash is gonna get mad at me again on PM and tell me to start a feedback post.

Sorry Tcash!!

Can we move on to the electrical shit now?


No. Laughing

I totally get why you were being a 'dick'. I felt the same way as you but from the opposite side of the coin... "YAY it's finally gone and they're happy. Ahhhh. I'mma sleep in, get re- acquainted with the wife, get some whiskey and cigars, grill burgers for some friends tonight, relax, think pleasant thoughts, get drunked, stop stressing, let my blood pressure start coming down... THE FUCK YOU MEAN IT'S COMING BACK???!!! Mad Mad Mad Mad NOOOOOO... " Laughing

What REALLY torques my shorts is that you wound up being right about the risers, even though they blew through with compressed air on assembly. How did you DO that?

Leave feedcrack, I don't care... I am a master debater and you'll lose. Laughing

But seriously... shit happens even when we don't want it to, and even when it shouldn't.

So tomorrow I'll start with disarming that damn solenoid and see what that gets us. I'm scratching my head over that 'clunk' because the play that goes along with it is just normal. Of course I'll need to pick up a new dial indicator to see exactly since mine is broken Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall but that's no biggie.

I already have German KS bearings located if we need to do this again, plus a new stock cam. I also have an original German Solex 30 PICT 3 carb located plus an NOS rebuild kit WITH a new float and both adjusting screws like you used to be able to get.

Yeah, my "assistant" built the engine so I am going to banish him to the Mercedes Benz Gulag for awhile while I personally go through this fine mess you've gotten me into. Wink

However, it's MY shop, I direct the work, and you paid ME, so I don't care if the ghost of Nordhoff himself built this thing... if he did it in my shop on my payroll than it's me you need to deal with. Sorry, Charlie.

And yeah, for the rest of the spectators here, I can guarantee you that these two definitely know how to drive a VW, LOL.

So anyways, I'll report back on the electrical shit tomorrow.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Oh, and for the morbidly curious... the bearings were old stock Brazilian, steel backed. While not German, they aren't Mexican or Chinese, either.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

I feel like I'm about to step into a big pile of dog shit but here goes. In my experience, .003" of end play cannot be felt much less heard when pulling on the pulley. I see maybe .010" with the clunk and that caused the oil leak.

Did the assistant use the correct gaskets under the heat riser? I've seen some that have just a small hole for flow.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
I feel like I'm about to step into a big pile of dog shit but here goes. In my experience, .003" of end play cannot be felt much less heard when pulling on the pulley. I see maybe .010" with the clunk and that caused the oil leak.

Did the assistant use the correct gaskets under the heat riser? I've seen some that have just a small hole for flow.


I wound up pulling it apart to replace splitting pushrod tubes, and yes. IIRC those small hole gaskets were for the tube side of "stale air" mufflers.

As to feeling the end play... like I said it's almost imperceptible. I have to concentrate to feel it, and sometimes even move the pulley before I get the slightest perception of movement.

I'm one of these assholes that can set end play and valve lash by feel just for fun, then check it, and it's right.

We'll see what the dial indicator says once I get it out.

Even if it's good I'm planning to remove the flywheel and check the thrust bearing for movement.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

No offense meant in any way. Clearly an unhappy situation. The failure rate on engines is getting higher even though everything looks and measures right.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Manfred58sc wrote:
No offense meant in any way. Clearly an unhappy situation. The failure rate on engines is getting higher even though everything looks and measures right.


No worries. No hard feelings here. We've been pleasantly out of phone service for a few days. It sure was an unhappy situation! We only got to add 250 miles or so to the motor before having to turn around. We're as eager as everybody to know what that dial indicator says.

Our trusty squareback is now transporting us east. But after getting a few nights in the bus we sure do miss it!!!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:42 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

There is nothing that I hate more than when a vehicle that has just had major drive line services performed on it going on a long journey. I always suggest that they drive it locally for at least 500 miles.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

neena wrote:
Manfred58sc wrote:
No offense meant in any way. Clearly an unhappy situation. The failure rate on engines is getting higher even though everything looks and measures right.


No worries. No hard feelings here. We've been pleasantly out of phone service for a few days. It sure was an unhappy situation! We only got to add 250 miles or so to the motor before having to turn around. We're as eager as everybody to know what that dial indicator says.

Our trusty squareback is now transporting us east. But after getting a few nights in the bus we sure do miss it!!!


I'll bet you do. Crying or Very sad

Dial indicator says .008, which is above the wear limit of .006 and twice what it was when it was built.

Alternator is showing black soot coming out the bottom rear from under the pulley so something definitely going on there. Also was picking up on a metallic roaring/ rattling noise that was becoming more pronounced and that I didn't like. I removed the V belt and the noise stopped, so it's def. in the alternator/ fan.

I'm disgusted with this engine and I'm not even going to screw around finding out what happened or why. I have two Squarebacks here, both of which have low mileage verified AS41 based exchange engines that I was saving for future personal projects. I'm pulling them both and the one that I can get all NOS German replacement bearings for will be yours. I'm sending everything out to get balanced (crank, flywheel, clutch, etc.) and then I'll personally build it to exact tolerances. It'll be all stock including the cam. Also have leads on a few good rebuildable 30 PICT 3s. It shouldn't take a half hour with a sniffer to set up a carb.

What youse guys need to noodle on is the charging system, and again, I'd like input from the group here on which is the better option:

1. Repair or replace what we have- Bosch alternator conversion.

2. Upgrade to 95 amp alternator

3. Go with 38 amp Bus generator. I can get an excellent rebuilt one, and I've tentatively located the correct dimpled fan tin. Need to get a stand and a strap, but that shouldn't be an issue.

Note that the front lights are H-4 conversions. I'll add relays if it seems that could be beneficial. Again, wiring and fuse block on this Bus are pristine. Charging system check on this alternator shows it never cracks 14v, it goes about 13.6 tops. It keeps the light off but it's tired.

Let's get this done and done right and then I'll ship it home.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

TDCTDI wrote:
There is nothing that I hate more than when a vehicle that has just had major drive line services performed on it going on a long journey. I always suggest that they drive it locally for at least 500 miles.


Engine was driven at least that in another bus after building for testing including on some very hot days. Then, it likely had- what?- another 300 miles at least if not more before this end play/ main seal leak/ manifold icing shit showed up.

It wasn't exactly a "slap 'er together, Slappy, and away she goes" issue, not by a long shot. I'm not a believer in that at all.

Speaking of manifold icing... the VW crowd in Europe seems to love these things:

https://www.paruzzi.com/uk/volkswagen/engine/carburetor-air-filter-inlet-manifold/2139/

If memory serves, one used to be able to get a heated grid built into a carb spacer years ago for these things, too. I'm thinking the warmer might not be a bad idea for added insurance.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tram wrote:

1. Repair or replace what we have- Bosch alternator conversion.

2. Upgrade to 95 amp alternator

3. Go with 38 amp Bus generator. I can get an excellent rebuilt one, and I've tentatively located the correct dimpled fan tin. Need to get a stand and a strap, but that shouldn't be an issue.


95A seems like overkill but then again with H4s and two batteries it might be better to have overkill than underkill. Very Happy

The H4s are standard 55/60W?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
TDCTDI wrote:
There is nothing that I hate more than when a vehicle that has just had major drive line services performed on it going on a long journey. I always suggest that they drive it locally for at least 500 miles.


Engine was driven at least that in another bus after building for testing including on some very hot days. Then, it likely had- what?- another 300 miles at least if not more before this end play/ main seal leak/ manifold icing shit showed up.

It wasn't exactly a "slap 'er together, Slappy, and away she goes" issue, not by a long shot. I'm not a believer in that at all.

Speaking of manifold icing... the VW crowd in Europe seems to love these things:

https://www.paruzzi.com/uk/volkswagen/engine/carburetor-air-filter-inlet-manifold/2139/

If memory serves, one used to be able to get a heated grid built into a carb spacer years ago for these things, too. I'm thinking the warmer might not be a bad idea for added insurance.


Well, we'd all been commenting on how cool running of a motor it was. And recall that the day we left I decided to put my hands on the heat risers and discovered that I could touch them and that they were merely warm even after extensive test driving. At that point, I think we all wanted to assume it was a momentary issue, not clogged heat risers and we all kind of just pretended everything was fine. I think dealing with 4 weeks of random issues will do that to a group of people.

This place tends to have NOS bearings:

https://www.bugcity.com/shop/shop.htm?pquery=Main+bearing

Other places (Gary Berg, kustom1warehouse, pierside parts, etc) carry Silverline ones.

I can't comment on the charging situation. It seems a good AL82A alternator should suffice but if 2 batteries and larger lights, etc are an issue, then I'm fine with a larger alternator. I think 75 amp is more common. 38 amp generator sounds nice but is that enough amps?

As to the stock cam and German Solex carb we emphatically say hell yes!!!!!

Ok....gotta get back on the road.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Tram wrote:
TDCTDI wrote:
There is nothing that I hate more than when a vehicle that has just had major drive line services performed on it going on a long journey. I always suggest that they drive it locally for at least 500 miles.


Engine was driven at least that in another bus after building for testing including on some very hot days. Then, it likely had- what?- another 300 miles at least if not more before this end play/ main seal leak/ manifold icing shit showed up.

It wasn't exactly a "slap 'er together, Slappy, and away she goes" issue, not by a long shot. I'm not a believer in that at all.

Speaking of manifold icing... the VW crowd in Europe seems to love these things:

https://www.paruzzi.com/uk/volkswagen/engine/carburetor-air-filter-inlet-manifold/2139/

If memory serves, one used to be able to get a heated grid built into a carb spacer years ago for these things, too. I'm thinking the warmer might not be a bad idea for added insurance.


Well, we'd all been commenting on how cool running of a motor it was. And recall that the day we left I decided to put my hands on the heat risers and discovered that I could touch them and that they were merely warm even after extensive test driving. At that point, I think we all wanted to assume it was a momentary issue, not clogged heat risers and we all kind of just pretended everything was fine. I think dealing with 4 weeks of random issues will do that to a group of people.

This place tends to have NOS bearings:

https://www.bugcity.com/shop/shop.htm?pquery=Main+bearing

Other places (Gary Berg, kustom1warehouse, pierside parts, etc) carry Silverline ones.

I can't comment on the charging situation. It seems a good AL82A alternator should suffice but if 2 batteries and larger lights, etc are an issue, then I'm fine with a larger alternator. I think 75 amp is more common. 38 amp generator sounds nice but is that enough amps?

As to the stock cam and German Solex carb we emphatically say hell yes!!!!!

Ok....gotta get back on the road.


Adios, Amoeba... have more fun than I am having! Laughing

I think the cam does add some nice mid range power but if it takes me an hour of constant fiddling, revving, and adjusting to get it to settle on 13 with a sniffer it'll do nothing to you but make you want to lose your boot up its tailpipe. I want you to have something you can set and go.

I'm going to get that damn altitude corrector working too. Twisted Evil
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