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blues90
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Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:57 pm Post subject: any know what the part number is for a 73 T-3 PCV ? |
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| I know you can't get one for decades. I though Russ might have had parts books or someone might. |
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KTPhil 
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Joined: April 06, 2006
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Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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blues90
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Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: any know what the part number is for a 73 T-3 PCV ? |
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Thanks Phil ; While I waited to see if any one knew I searched and found the same link you provided before.
Turns out the part number as listed here
https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/PCV.htm
Is the same part number on 73 T-3 . Both are 022 115 542. I read through all I could since I have this no load idle when warm which I've been chasing for a few years now . It's an erratic miss and not one cylinder or steady like a bad plug or injector . As far as the PCV goes I don't have any bucking while driving or even when I step on it to pick up speed and it does not miss when driving . Last time I removed the small plastic plug off the breather box and put my finger on the PCV to just block it from pulling vacuum into the IAD and it did not change a thing. The one and only thing that stops this erratic idle is unplugging the air intake temp sensor. I could also see the PCV close at idle and open the throttle a bit more and it opens a tiny bit you can't measure the damn thing I can just see it closes and opens . Yet when you do remove the breather box small plastic cap or even the large one you basically lose the crank case pressure it then just vents right out of that opening. The PCV and the crank case pressure need to work together. Reading the Rennlist most of the time it's the crank case pressure and the PCV closed there are 3 bypass ports on the PCV that do most of the venting . I can't compare the Porsche system to a T-3 because I have not seen how they differ both use vacuum and crank case pressure and being the same part number both have the three by pass ports.
IN order to vent like the early model T-3's I would need probably the early oil bath and plug the head breather ports and the Vacuum line to the back of the IAD .
I don't think that's the issue I have , it's possible the TPS through just engine vibration causes this yet it does not act up in the manner it's described. Right now I'm more concerned about the fuel pump bleeding down over night I can't recall when I needed to prime it like I do now didn't make note of it I just don't recall it doing this 2 years ago I just cannot recall when it started. I know it's been at least a year .
I can live with the idle deal it's not something that stands out what does is if the pump suddenly quits pumping after I shut it down then fails to start . So far once it's primed it will start right off hot or cold all day long . I can park it in the garage as I have done then three hours later if I forgot to pick up something I forgot like last tuesday the land load called and said she misplaced the rent check the car sat for at least 2 hours and fired right up. Guess I need to sell a few quarts of blood and get an airtex pump just in case last thing I want to do is install it in some forsaken parking lot I can't get under there to reach the pump without jacking it up and using jack stands all I can reach is the plug by feel with the front beam in the way or I can get it towed home since I pay for that in my car ins trouble with that is many tow truck drivers are such idiots they do more harm than good.
It's always something , always. I don't care about original as far as a fuel pump goes . |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:53 am Post subject: Re: any know what the part number is for a 73 T-3 PCV ? |
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| Quote: |
Turns out the part number as listed here
https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/PCV.htm
Is the same part number on 73 T-3 . Both are 022 115 542. I read through all I could since I have this no load idle when warm which I've been chasing for a few years now . It's an erratic miss and not one cylinder or steady like a bad plug or injector . |
This is good sleuthing. I have written much on the PCV system issues but mainly with type 4 engines. I discussed this many years ago at length of the STF and Brad Anders was in the thread.
If memory serves...he was right about a few items I had not enough data for....that in fact when the PCV is messing with the MPS is is probably the actual barometric aneroid it is screwing with instead of the copper diaphragm. The aneroid is more sensitive....but it is the PCV that can do this....that I have verified many times.
NOTE: The issues I found with the PCV causing random misfire....were due to age and weakness in the valves allowing the combination of case pressure and vacuum to randomly pop the valve open.
Now.....while that amount of very small inlet of crankcase pressure seems trivial...and it kind of is....the reason why it had effect at all was primarily because on the type 4 1.7L and NOT the 014 2.0L...it was because of WHERE the PCV hose injected this random puff of gas.
On the 1.7L 411/412 and 914 plenum...its within about 1/2" from the MPS tube.
The 2.0L 914 does not have this proximity issue....so the small leakage of the PCV valve with age and spring weakness....is probably not an issue as Brand Anders noted long ago....and others have noted later in other conversations.
I think those original conversations on the STF were somewhere around 2002 to 2004
That being said.....I do not know if the type 3 plenum has close enough proximity between the PCV inlet tube and the MPS tube to cause this issue when the MPS tube comes from the back of the plenum....but it might when the MPS tube comes from the side of the plenum.
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| As far as the PCV goes I don't have any bucking while driving or even when I step on it to pick up speed and it does not miss when driving . Last time I removed the small plastic plug off the breather box and put my finger on the PCV to just block it from pulling vacuum into the IAD and it did not change a thing. |
The PCV valve does not cause bucking...by itself.....UNLESS...its coupled with another fuel mixture issue. Remember....the problems with PCV (unless you have serious blow-by).....are random at idle. The issue is that a small puff of PCV gas in some cases....causes reaction...small reaction...from the MPS. That reaction is enrichment....very small and quick enrichment.
BUT.....BUT.....if that small enrichment is COUPLED with an engine that is already adjusted slightly rich by a few percent...it can make a NOTICEABLE "buck"...like a hard misfire.
It can also work the other direction. If the system is adjusted just a bit too lean...but the idle is stable....its running inherently weak...but stable. The puff of random MPS gas bumping the MPS enrichment up just a slight amount....does not so much cause a "buck"...it causes an exhaust pulse or combustion cycle that is slightly stronger than all the rest....its more felt than heard....but its in the background. Sorry thats the only way I can describe it.
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| The one and only thing that stops this erratic idle is unplugging the air intake temp sensor. |
Man...I dont know how many times I can keep repeating this....but I will  ....not beating on you...just sayin!
This is telling you something.
This is telling you something.......
Whats it telling you?
Its telling you your baseline fuel mixture is off. Pulling the plug out of this sensor...typically makes your mixture about 5-10% richer across the board.
If doing this helps you run better...and its a seasonal thing like it runs better in high temps with the sensor plugged in and runs better in temps below about 65F with it unplugged....which is common....its usually because your baseline fuel mixture is pretty close (but not perfect)....but you are getting excessive changes to fuel mixture from the CHT/TS-2 or from other issues like vacuum signature.
Usually a ballast resistor to the CHT/TS-2 will fix this issue if its TS-2 related and seasonal.
Short of that......if its not seasonal....if pulling the TS-1 plug gets rid of the problem anytime and in any weather....its time to adjust the MPS....which is what I have been saying for ages.
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I could also see the PCV close at idle and open the throttle a bit more and it opens a tiny bit you can't measure the damn thing I can just see it closes and opens . Yet when you do remove the breather box small plastic cap or even the large one you basically lose the crank case pressure it then just vents right out of that opening.
The PCV and the crank case pressure need to work together. Reading the Rennlist most of the time it's the crank case pressure and the PCV closed there are 3 bypass ports on the PCV that do most of the venting . |
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I can't compare the Porsche system to a T-3 because I have not seen how they differ both use vacuum and crank case pressure and being the same part number both have the three by pass ports. |
Not sure what you are saying here....bypass ports? There are no bypass ports for PCV. On type 4....the PCV comes FROM the top of the case. In the late model type 3 it does as well.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7682651
Note the diagram in YOUR thread here. The RED hoses are coming FROM the air cleaner.....allowing clean air into the rocker boxes. This flushes through the PR tubes into the case and pushes air to the chimney at the top where the PCV valve is. That in turn is vented to the plenum when the combination of suction and case pressure combine to pop the PCV open.
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| IN order to vent like the early model T-3's I would need probably the early oil bath and plug the head breather ports and the Vacuum line to the back of the IAD |
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For some reason I am drawing a mental blank for "early" type 3 PCV. Have to check the book s. 
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| I don't think that's the issue I have , it's possible the TPS through just engine vibration causes this yet it does not act up in the manner it's described. |
Mmmmm....no. The only way this is possible is IF there is very high wear in the D-shaped clutch or chuck that holds onto the throttle shaft. Or....if the spring washer assembly in the stack up is worn out. Rare.
The most common issue that can cause something like this...but you will not see it at idle only at shift transition points at part throttle... is a very worn throttle cable barrel clamp. If the hole in arm is oversized the clamp can chatter in the hole at shift point transition. At idle....the throttle plate is held closed by the spring and the throttle shaft is held locked tight with load in the D shaped chuck inside.
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| Right now I'm more concerned about the fuel pump bleeding down over night I can't recall when I needed to prime it like I do now didn't make note of it I just don't recall it doing this 2 years ago I just cannot recall when it started. I know it's been at least a year . |
If its just leaking down slowly and does not go to "0" overnight...and even then...if a bump of the key to prime it takes it back up to at least the mid teens in pressure....you can run with this.
Ray |
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blues90
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Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:40 am Post subject: Re: any know what the part number is for a 73 T-3 PCV ? |
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| Quote: |
| Right now I'm more concerned about the fuel pump bleeding down over night I can't recall when I needed to prime it like I do now didn't make note of it I just don't recall it doing this 2 years ago I just cannot recall when it started. I know it's been at least a year . |
If its just leaking down slowly and does not go to "0" overnight...and even then...if a bump of the key to prime it takes it back up to at least the mid teens in pressure....you can run with this.
Ray[/quote]
The pressure does bleed down to zero over night . It takes more than a bump of the key to get the pressure up before it will start , if it sits 2 days it takes around 8 to 9 key bumps which means waiting the the pump relay to time out the 1 1/2 seconds before it will start . I did not check to see how many times I need to cycle the key with a gauge attached to see what the pressure is . When I did have the gauge on I just cycled the key the 8 or so times then saw the gauge was 22PSI . I just know it will not start if I don't cycle the key about 7 to 8 times. If I do it less and try to start it it will run for a second or two and quit sometimes it won't run when it does start and I have not cycled the key enough times if I open the throttle a bit when it tries to stall the extra enrichment provided by the TPS IE firing the injectors then I will feel the lag yet it will clear and run that takes a second or two which may be just clearing out the air in the injector lines.
The main point is once it fires up I can drive it fine and shut it down and even let it sit for 3 1/2 or more hours and it will always fire right back up yet it holds the pressure at 18 PSI for at least 3 1/2 hours it may be longer than 3 1/2 hours that amount of time just happened to be the point when I shut it down and then went back to my garage to check it . When checked the next morning it was 0 pressure.
Like I brought up in the AAR post I was told the issue was hot soak fuel boiling which leaves only fuel vapor in the lines. If this were in my personal experience true I can't buy it because #1 I only ran my engine long enough to check and adjust the fuel pressure so the engine was far from hot and #2 most important all the years I've owned this car and drove it full time since 91 yet still drove it since 1986 it didn't matter if it was 65 F or 110 F and driven in stop and go only traffic or 70 MPH and parked it in the damn garage the next day or even after 4 days I could just reach in the open window and turn the key once not even waiting for the 1 1/2 second pump time up it fired right up without fail. Truth is I was not even aware there was a 1 1/2 second pump timeout simply because I just got in and turned the key I didn't wait or hear the relay run the pump then stop . I only paid attention when this key cycle crap was what I needed to do to start the damn thing. The pump runs while the starter is running the time out is really designed to prevent flooding if the engine will not start and you keep cranking the engine holding the key in that position.
All I can take away from this is since the engine fuel lines are the highest point and the pump the lowest and I see no fuel dripping out of the pump or lines on the garage floor by gravity the fuel drains back to the pump and if the pumps so called check valve is not holding over night somehow since there is not external leak the amount of fuel in the entire fuel loop has to be close to the same amount the pump will hold including the fuel in the pumps motor that cools the pump and lubes it because I can't imagine it goes through the pump and back up into the tank either through the return line or the bypass through the Y fitting. I am also reminded that it does not take much fuel the drop the pressure to zero yet at the same time since I need to prime the system with so many key on/off cycles my impression is there can't be much fuel in the loop because once I cycle the key so much I hear air purge at least that's what it sounds like first back where the engine sits like a sort of short squawk then a slight air sound in the front like air into the tank. I realize it's pressure and volume seems like I have neither until it's primed.
As you said it could be either the pump or regulator allowing the fuel pressure to bleed down . it seems to me for a quick test I wound need to at least clamp the pressure line closed before the #3 cylinder injector and right at the point where the fuel line enters the regulator after I build up pressure then with the gauge on release the clamp on the pump output side and see and if all good then the regulator side or the reverse since it's possible I won't know if the reg leaks back if it has no pressure in the line. I need to know I will not just throw parts at it. Keep in mind once it's primed it starts and I can adjust fuel pressure and it's steady and it always starts once it's primed even hours later without waiting for the 1 1/2 second timeout. I know Keith from the type 3 org email said he never had this hot soak issue even before he had his original pump rebuilt he said he added a line check valve so it would start with a quick turn of the key which mine used to, he didn't have an issue with his 1970 pump he had it done because he had his car restored in 2009 and didn't want to worry . |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: any know what the part number is for a 73 T-3 PCV ? |
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You are on the right track.
If it were the regulator....which can be PART of the pressure loss.....it would not cause complete drain back overnight which is what it sounds like you are getting.
You are also right that the gas turning to vapor theory.....is not correct.....at least its not the primary issue.
However once you starting draining the lones back by sometime in the mjddle of the night....yeah...sure.....you will get som fuel evaporation.
You "could" look for an inline check valve to put just upstream of the pump to backstop the leaky internal one. With two check valves inline aIhave no idea how the pump efficieny could be affected.
Ray |
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blues90
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Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: any know what the part number is for a 73 T-3 PCV ? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
You are on the right track.
If it were the regulator....which can be PART of the pressure loss.....it would not cause complete drain back overnight which is what it sounds like you are getting.
You are also right that the gas turning to vapor theory.....is not correct.....at least its not the primary issue.
However once you starting draining the lones back by sometime in the mjddle of the night....yeah...sure.....you will get som fuel evaporation.
You "could" look for an inline check valve to put just upstream of the pump to backstop the leaky internal one. With two check valves inline aIhave no idea how the pump efficieny could be affected.
Ray |
Once I can get a better idea of where or if I have an actual fuel leak I will fix it. I don't have a very good sense of smell at all which is not helping yet I do smell faint gas near the front RF fender and inside the truck which is most likely that what most call the over flow hose even in 2006 especially when I filled the tank my wife would always comment on it, it would lesson when the tank dropped to 3/4 tank , last I filled up in a long time was Aug 1st I topped it off and it ran under the car wanted to see where the fuel gauge and once I got home the entire garage smelled like fuel I saw no leak on the filler hose in the truck and with it closed the next day the smell didn't lessen. This ethanol based fuel and what ever else is added to it dopes not seem to evaporate nearly as fast as real old time gas. I noticed when I decided to used the cold start valve hose to connect my pressure gauge a bit more than a year ago I had clamped the fuel line to the CSV and couldn't get at that clamp so I cut that line as close as I could get and the remaining fuel in that hose hung around since I had the hose up between the runners even driving it I noticed the next day there was still fuel in that line . Point of that is hopefully if I build up pressure and check under the front the pump and all the lines if a leak exists I will see it.
The pressure drop and changing out the brake fluid are the two main issues I need to get to . The brakes work and I have not changed the fluid since about 2002 I did replace the disc pads and all 4 pistons went in with no binding and once the pads were in I was able to pump the pedal just a little and the pads all came out and have the normal slight drag wheels on and off . I know it's been far to long yet hopefully I can change the fluid and get away with it without some issue and I do feel I can.
I looked a the parts I would need if I had to deal with the caliper rebuilding and rear wheel cylinders and a new master and it's just something I can afford so I ride on hope just changing fluid will do for a while and the brakes do stop the car now all should be good.
Trust me if I had the funds and another mode of transport I'd just do it all and breath easier . All the posts here on others fixing whatever needs it they appear to be able to afford it 2009 was the last time I was able to do so and even then I had no other mode of transport yet it was not as involved as rebuilding the brakes . I'm no stranger to brake jobs , I've seen what winters in the north with the salt chemical can do in IL where most times there was not one bolt that would come off without a torch or air hammer . Here every bolt and nut even on the exhaust was no effort and like new other than road dirt .
I'll see how it goes , I don't drive on the freeways and don't tail gate yet I have hit the brakes a few times and it stops well. I just want to change it out since I know it has to have moisture in it the lines do look like new on the outside hopefully they are good on the inside. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:26 am Post subject: Re: any know what the part number is for a 73 T-3 PCV ? |
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I know the feeling. When you dont have the funds.....you cant do everything you need to.
But you are doing the right thing keeping an eye on things.
For example with brakes.....if you do not have the funds to rebuild....or the parts.....at least occasionally inspecting to get rid of rust can keep the cores from getting ruined.
Just keep in mind that caliper kits and MC kits are cheap. Ray |
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