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brokengun
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Location: Maine
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 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:24 pm Post subject: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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Checking oil pressure on a 1.9L with about ~170k on it, I'm running Rotella T straight 30W in it with about 1 qt of ZDDP additive. Pressure started out high when it was cold and worked it's way down to ~7psi when idling. Here is a quick video of it running at 3000RPM with engine at operating temp, it doesn't quite make it to 20psi which seems low to me.
Link
I've read around on some other posts trying to equate apples and oranges with different oil weights, etc but can't convince myself of how bad this is. Thoughts? I've been seeing some weird lifter behavior and trying to nail it down to something. Thanks!
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hdenter
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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Is that reading at just normal operating temp with engine just warmed up or with the engine on the hot side, say temp needle mid way or a little bit beyond. Your idle pressure is higher than I would expect with such a poor reading at 3000rpm.
Hans
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brokengun
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Location: Maine
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:29 am Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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Engine just warmed up temp gauge hanging out about halfway to the red light (where it typically is under normal operating conditions). I didn't run the ran van around I just revved it and let it idle to warm it up.
I've heard a rule of thumb of 10 psi per 1000 RPM but I appear to be way off that with my higher reading.
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hdenter
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Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:40 am Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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Your engine is getting worn out and it's time for a rebuild. If you are not able to do that right now, there are some options to buy you time. Moving up to a thicker oil, adding an oil cooler and stiffening the oil pressure relief spring will bump you up a few psi. Plenty of 1.9s have lasted a while with poor oil pressure. Just remember, it's a gamble. You could grenade one day and not have a rebuildable core. Good Luck!
Hans
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jberger
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:12 am Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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Put some Mobil1 15w50 in that sucker. I had a customer van years ago that came in with abysmal pressure. God knows what oil he had. Changed it out and bingo, back to proper specs.
J |
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brokengun
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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I am thinking I might dive into it and try to check out the oil pump to see if it is within tolerance and repair it as needed. If I did get the pressure up that seems like it could help but also looking at the end play of the crankshaft, etc might be informative too. I don't really want to drop the engine or do a rebuild at this time.
If I am able to raise the oil pressure due to a worn out pump for example, is it already too far gone? The oil looks clean.
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1974 Westy - Will be on the road one day!
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atomatom
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Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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why not just put the recommended oil in? 30w may be too light.
also, check the oil filter. some can cause low oil pressure.
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djkeev
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brokengun
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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I've got a mann filter on it so I don't think it is the filter. Also my understanding of oil weights is that 15W50 is actual 15w with additives that make it lubricate like 50W although it isn't anywhere near as thick as 50W. So, while I don't want to discount what jberger is saying I'm not sure I see the reasoning behind his observation. On the other hand, there is an autoparts store across the street and it might be worth a shot.
djkeev: One bit of info is that it started out high >40psi and decreased slowly while the engine warmed. So I'm also skeptical that the relief valve is weak enough to be relieving down to 20psi when it held higher than that for minutes when cold. You know what I mean?
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djkeev
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atomatom
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brokengun
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| So maybe new is not always better....... |
I've been burned on this before, which is why I'm so questioning about it. It just seems like that relief valve would kick in at higher pressure but maybe I'm wrong. Could always try the 10cent washer fix too. I guess if I did the washer fix and changed nothing else that would be informative.
The diagnosis here ranges from a complete engine rebuild to an oil change so I guess I'll need to try something to see which way things go! 
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djkeev
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jberger
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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| sae 30w is a straight weight oil. It will be 30w at any temperature. Multi weight oils allow for better flow at lower temperatures and proper viscosity at operating temps. Your 1.9 does not have an oil cooler and will run very hot oil temps. 30w oil is not thick enough for these engines. Mobil 1 15w50 will run 5lbs higher pressure at operating temp than castrol 20w50 and will be significantly higher than your straight 30W at temp. But by all means, pull your oil pump and mess with springs instead of changing your oil. I would also invest in an oil cooler. |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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A quart of ZDDP booster? Do you have a clue as to what kind of crap you are adding to your crankcase? Straight weight oils are not required to have reduced phosphorus so you may have added enough crap to your crankcase to be damaging some of the vital stuff inside. With a concentrated ZDDP additive you would only be adding a few ounces to the the crankcase to get you ZDDP up to 1300 ppm if you oil was a SM/SN rated oil with reduced phosphorus to start with.
Also additives like red STP will not increase the level of ZDDP in your crankcase, but may well lower it as they seem to be nothing but SM/SN rated mystery oils with reduced phosphorus.
You shouldn't be using your crankcase to run chemistry experiments, that is the job of petroleum engineers.
As for straight 30wt, modern straight weight oils are more like synthetics multigrades than dino multigrades are and many are far removed for the straight weight oils of yesteryear. They may or may not be fine in your crankcase and shouldn't need adulterating if you do run them. |
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brokengun
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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Took another reading today with the same oil in there and it read 5 PSI higher roughly 23 PSI at 3000RPM now. Keep in mind there was literally no change to anything else here except a night in the driveway.
I decided to give the Mobil1 15W50 a try, so I picked some up and drained the straight 30W. I probably need to run it around a bit, etc but I had the oil pressure gauge all hooked up already so I warmed up the engine and took another reading. Reads essentially the same as the previous reading I took today with the straight 30W (~23psi @3000RPM warm). So, there is clearly some irregularity in the measurement and I'll probably run it around a little and measure again with the 15W50 to see if I can measure a change. So, probably try the springs next seeing as removing that oil pump is pretty involved.
Jberger: Thanks, didn't know that about multi-grade oils. Oil cooler sounds like a good idea but I'd like to get better confidence in my engine health before I install something like that.
Wildthings: To be clear 1. I don't really have a clue. 2. I used STP ZDDP oil treatment and the recommended amount is to use 1 quart per oil change. If I understand correctly this is not a concentrated ZDDP treatment like some other ZDDP additives. Additionally, I only ran it while I broke in a new lifter for roughly ~300 miles. I took the advice from an aircooled motor guy but hey it's a learning experience.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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| brokengun wrote: |
I've got a mann filter on it so I don't think it is the filter. Also my understanding of oil weights is that 15W50 is actual 15w with additives that make it lubricate like 50W although it isn't anywhere near as thick as 50W. So, while I don't want to discount what jberger is saying I'm not sure I see the reasoning behind his observation. On the other hand, there is an autoparts store across the street and it might be worth a shot.
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To the best of my knowledge all 15w-50 oils are synthetic so they don't start out as 15wt oils to which viscosity modifiers are added. They are highly select oils that respond like multigrades without VM's. For a 20w50 oil most but not all will be dino oils. As I posted before today's straight weight oils are going to function closer to synthetic oils than dino oils do. They are much more highly refined than a straight weight oil of 30 years ago, so a 30wt oil may function quite similarly to a 10w30 synthetic oil.
I spent a bunch of time looking into red and blue STP oil additive 8+/- years ago and found STP's published info on the amount of ZDDP their additives had along with independent analysis done on the additives, both showed that STP had low levels of ZDDP, about the same as an SM/SN reduced phosphorus oil. Apparently in earlier times STP actually did contain a fair amount of ZDDP, but lowered the levels to meet the SM/SN standards. |
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jberger
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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| brokengun wrote: |
Took another reading today with the same oil in there and it read 5 PSI higher roughly 23 PSI at 3000RPM now. Keep in mind there was literally no change to anything else here except a night in the driveway.
I decided to give the Mobil1 15W50 a try, so I picked some up and drained the straight 30W. I probably need to run it around a bit, etc but I had the oil pressure gauge all hooked up already so I warmed up the engine and took another reading. Reads essentially the same as the previous reading I took today with the straight 30W (~23psi @3000RPM warm). So, there is clearly some irregularity in the measurement and I'll probably run it around a little and measure again with the 15W50 to see if I can measure a change. So, probably try the springs next seeing as removing that oil pump is pretty involved.
Jberger: Thanks, didn't know that about multi-grade oils. Oil cooler sounds like a good idea but I'd like to get better confidence in my engine health before I install something like that.
Wildthings: To be clear 1. I don't really have a clue. 2. I used STP ZDDP oil treatment and the recommended amount is to use 1 quart per oil change. If I understand correctly this is not a concentrated ZDDP treatment like some other ZDDP additives. Additionally, I only ran it while I broke in a new lifter for roughly ~300 miles. I took the advice from an aircooled motor guy but hey it's a learning experience. |
Wow... That's awesome! Not trying to be daft... you just verified that your engine is really really ready for a renew. Nothing better than fixing a catastrophic issue before it manifests. When you rebuild it.. you'll see 50psi at 3000 rpm all day long.. |
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brokengun
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:52 am Post subject: Re: 1.9L Oil Pressure Check ~20PSI at 3000RPM |
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Jerbeger: 50psi sounds kind of high I would think even for a warm engine though right? Maybe not though. Not trying to be cheeky either, just trying to understand more.
Just thinking out loud here about my options. If I'm understanding Jerbeger correctly he is basically saying if I fiddle with the relief spring that it shouldn't really have an impact. Correct? If the 15W50 oil didn't raise the pressure then the theory is either the bearings are worn on the bottom end or something in the pump system is no good?
I might just try to shim the spring just to throw my results up here for others to reference anyway.
However if I could gain another 5-10psi by changing the relief spring and/or changing out the oil pump what would that mean? It sounds like you're saying to not even spend my time on that because your confident there is something else wrong on the lower end.
I have spent a lot of time so far doing fixes on this engine and the low oil pressure seems to make a lot of sense for what I was seeing. I've had both heads rebuilt, replaced one bad lifter, cleaned several other lifters. adjusted valves and observed some strange stuff. My lifters all have the ability to pump up (I've actually tracked each one and seen them all rock hard at various times) but sporadically just take forever to pump up. Then when the oil gets hot I get a little popping from the engine like it's leaving an intake valve open somewhere (maybe still incorrect valve adjustment). Is it possible that a combination of my thick oil and low oil pressure could've caused that?
Thanks for all the input folks! Like I said I have spent a lot of time working out what is going on with this engine with lots of help from this forum. At this point I'm just interested in getting to the root of it and figuring out where to go next. 
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1974 Westy - Will be on the road one day!
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djkeev
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