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Pilot Bearing FAQ
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'79jw
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Pilot Bearing FAQ Reply with quote

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I was replacing a leaky front seal (79 westy) when i discovered all the pins of the pilot bearing where broken and out of the bearing. I did a search and didn't come up with much. I am wondering how crucial the bearing is, what caused its destruction, and can I pull it out and replace it w/o much hassle. I did notice when I pulled my motor it was missing the lower right mounting stud, could this have caused excesive movement, if so what else should I be concerned about. Also I have an old 1700 motor with an intact bearing, are these compatible? (2 dif. type tranny) And finnally where can I get a good inexpensive puller, preferably one that does the starter bushing as well. Thanks for your help.

JW
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glutamodo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pilot bearing is crucial. Without it, you will have trouble shifting without grinding into gear, and the transmission input shaft seal will go bad. I'm not sure what pullers are available cheap that will work to remove what's left of the pilot bearing. The outer cage usually breaks instead of pulling out. When I was mechanic on these, for me the fastest way to remove them was to get a small hardened rotary file for a drill or die grinder, and use that to cut through one of the walls of the bearing cage. Once you do that, you can use a seal puller and the cage will pop right out.

The pilot bearing from the 1700 will work, but I think I'd rather get a new one myself. Although sometimes you CAN remove a good pilot bearing without destroying it - you'll need a punch or an old input shaft that fits snugly into the opening in the bearing, and a grease gun. What you do is fill up that bearing hole til it's packed, then put the punch in there and pound on it with a hammer. The hydraulic pressure of the grease will (if you are lucky) force the bearing out. You usually have to refill the bearing with grease and pound again, several times, before it comes out. It's a messy job because some grease will fly past the punch.

-Andy
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old DKP driver
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:56 pm    Post subject: pilot bearing Reply with quote

you will destoy the bearing trying to remove it from your other engine, buy a new one. and get some emmory cloth and clean up the end of the input shaft also, and put some lube on it before you shove it in..not K.Y. jelly. and be nice to the end of the crank getting the old pilot brgn. out. as far as the missing stud is concerned, check your other engine to see if the length is the same.
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pilot bearing is pretty cheap, less than 4 bucks. the puller will cost you about 30 or 40. some people have good luck getting the pilot bearing out by filling it with heavy grease and then using a tight fitting punch inside the bearing and the hydraulic pressure of the grease forces the bearing out of the hole. but i have tried that method and bever been able to make it work.

http://www.germansupply.com/home/customer/product.php?productid=16830
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the puller will cost you about 30 or 40.

I improvised a puller from a large screw a nut and large washers.
The broken bearing cage had enough remaining to catch the bolt's head at the edge of the cage rim;
May be I used some more bits or levers ( and many curses ) to avoid the bolt head to skip will torquing the nut.
Sure, it came out this way.
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'79jw
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I am going to see if I can't frankenstein some removing device. Worst comes to worse 30-40 for a tool that saves me from those hours of cursing hell isn't such a bad deal. I also noticed there aren't any felt rings. I'll get them as well, if the engineers thought it was good, thats good enough for me. Thank you all for your help once again.

JW
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old DKP driver
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject: pilot bearing Reply with quote

do you have an air grinder, or dremel tool,grind a slot(will not hurt the bearing pocket) it will come out quickly.
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine came out but the grease trick nor a puller did it. Make sure you pack the new one with grease.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:06 am    Post subject: Pilot bearing Using Vanagon Diesel 056 105 313 C in a Type 4 Reply with quote

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Using a Vanagon 056 105 313 C Diesel Pilot bearing in a Type 4
1981-1984 Diesel Vanagon Pilot Bearing 15 x 21 x 15mm
NATIONAL F85265 Needle Bearing;


Wildthings wrote:

Pretty much any VW Diesel as well as some of the industrial engine to the best of my knowledge. I should have one around, will look for a part number. Pretty much the same bearing as a regular VW pilot bearing but with a built in seal. Because of the seal the bearing is an 1/8th of an inch or so longer so the back of the flywheel must be clearanced. Search under "Andrew A. Libby" for pilot bearing.

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I had mine done at a local machine shop but will used Libby's idea whenever I do another.
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sodbuster
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Pilot Bearing FAQ Reply with quote

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I have found that this style puller make short work of replacing type IV pilot bearings. VW actually gives a spec on the amount of grease to use on this bearing. it is 1 gram of grease.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Pilot Bearing FAQ Reply with quote

sodbuster wrote:

I have found that this style puller make short work of replacing type IV pilot bearings. VW actually gives a spec on the amount of grease to use on this bearing. it is 1 gram of grease.


They give specs for the amount of grease to use in virtually every bearing in the car....and usually its too little grease....like in CV joints.
The sad thing about grease specs given by weight...is that depending on the specific gravity of the grease...and they can be all over the planet....the actual VOLUME of 1 gram of grease can vary by as much as 40-50%.

Over greasing of the pilot bearing is only a big problem if the grease point has too low of a drop point and it ends up spraying liquid-ish oil out all over the flywheel.
Conversely...too high of a drop point in cold weather....and the bearing will die from lack of lubricant flow.

The very best solution in places with a wide range of weather...hot to freezing...is an outer seal on the needle bearing that keeps stray grease in and stray clutch material dust and grit out.

The diesel bearing has a felt seal in it to do this. The effect is exactly what the felt ring is for but having one in the bearing would be better.

Oddly...just today I was going through an INA seal technology catalog...and they make and sell specific, single lip, thin depth seals just for needle bearings. They have no garter spring inside so they have very low seal pressure on the shaft.

Maybe one of these on a needle bearing that is either shorter or recessed lightly would be ideal.

From the tech document...needle bearing seal orientation

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Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Pilot Bearing FAQ Reply with quote

The diesel bearing has a felt seal in it to do this.
The diesel bearing has a rubber seal in the bearing.
I would back that up with the felt seal and retainer in the flywheel.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Pilot Bearing FAQ Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
The diesel bearing has a felt seal in it to do this.
The diesel bearing has a rubber seal in the bearing.
I would back that up with the felt seal and retainer in the flywheel.


Cool!....i have not had one in my hand. I was going off of what I could see in the picture.

Very nice solution. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:09 pm    Post subject: Pilot bearing 111 105 313 A Type I & IV, 1950-79 Reply with quote

Felt ring, Pilot bearing and Felt Retainer
#26, 111 105 311 Felt ring Type I comes in gland nut.
#(26), 021 105 311 Felt ring with Felt Retainer (spacer) Type IV.
#27, 111 105 313 A Pilot bearing (needle bearing) , Type I & IV, 1950-79.
#28, 111 105 315 Felt Retainer (spacer) Yr-?
thanks to jerseylooker
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http://www.jerseylooker.com/FicheDump/EarlyBaywindow/1-016.jpg

thanks to mayor ratwell http://www.ratwell.com/technical/091Transmission.html#clutch.

Found some pics. Thanks to noslencb
Type IV Diagram
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Type IV Without Felt ring and Felt Retainer (spacer).
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Type IV With Felt ring and Felt Retainer (spacer).
Note I have seen a Felt retainer that had no shoulder and was a spring band.
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Thanks to Desertbusman
Type I Gland Nut
Note: The Felt, Pilot (needle bearing) and Felt Retainer come installed in the Gland nut.
Note: The wide shoulder on the Felt Retainer versus the Type IV. The Felt and Felt retainer on the Type I have a bigger outside diameter, than the Type IV.
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busman78
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Pilot Bearing FAQ Reply with quote

This is the tool I use, never could get the grease trick to work. This internal puller is about $40 maybe a little more new and about half that used.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Pilot Bearing FAQ Reply with quote

busman78 wrote:
This is the tool I use, never could get the grease trick to work. This internal puller is about $40 maybe a little more new and about half that used.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The grease trick only works on intact bearings.....and the pilot tool needs to be a dead fit with the needles. You need to spend a few minutes...absolutely packing the cavity with a decently stiff wheel bearing grease so there are no are bubbles.

Place the pilot tool into the grease so its maybe 1mm inside of the needles so there is no gap between pilot tool and needles for the grease to spray around. Strike the tool w8th a 3 lb sledge....hard and quick holding the tool straight.

Unless the cage is completely hard rusted in.....it will pump the bearing out by at least 50% of its length. I have had them come completely out.

Once I got the hang of it I have never had it fail. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Pilot Bearing FAQ Reply with quote

Ray I did all that, spent about an hour playing with the idea, even turned a dowel down to exact fit. Had already been popping bearings with that tool for years so playing with grease was not a high priority, yes I did wack it with a shop hammer, numerous times, although mine is only 2-1/2 pounds, think it was to light?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Pilot Bearing FAQ Reply with quote

busman78 wrote:
Ray I did all that, spent about an hour playing with the idea, even turned a dowel down to exact fit. Had already been popping bearings with that tool for years so playing with grease was not a high priority, yes I did wack it with a shop hammer, numerous times, although mine is only 2-1/2 pounds, think it was to light?


Laughing ....Yep....I did the same thing on my first try. I even repacked it three times...tried all kinds of things. Grease ALL OVER the place.

Thought how stupid!. It hydraulic.

You need a heavy weight. .....moving at high speed. It needs to REALLY compress the grease. I was using a 1.5 lb bqll peen hammer with a 14" handle.....thought it was yough enough.

My brother the mechanical engineer came out and laughed at me and said..."just buy a puller,sh*thead!".......but it was Sunday.....where to get a specialized puller on Sunday?

He had already done this before and noted that the alignment tool I was using as the piston was simply not mkving fast enough.....and as pressure built up inside the cavity...even though I cannot feel it....it reaches equilibrium.....and squirts past the edges of the rod.....because I did not have enough OVER PRESSURE on the rod.

He reached in the tool box.....pulled out a 3 lb sledge hammer......put on a glove .....turned the hammer sideways so he would not miss...and gave it a full arm swing with a 90 stroke......WHACK!

Pumped the bearing out about 3/4 of its length with no grease spray. He laughed....and said...."you were being too gentle with it".

Its perfect and better to have a puller......but the hydraulic method works like a charm......if you get brutal with it. Ray
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