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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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| Wasted youth wrote: |
Steve, to your point on centering the steering box and wheel...
In the past with my other buses, I got into the habit of letting the bus find its own happy center spot on a drive. Then, I popped off the steering wheel and reset it.
By doing that, am I in danger of actually missing the center point of the box?
Said another way, if the steering box is somehow off in travel from left to right, and I reset the steering wheel only, I'm fooling myself? |
Yes, I hate to make this long winded. Imagine it is 1910 and you build a steering box. It wears and the farmers complain that it can't be adjusted. You add an adjusting screw. That way the farmers can adjust their steering box as it wears. Well, it wears with the worst wear in the center, and almost no wear on the outside of the turn. So one day the farmer adjusts it so it runs great around the farm and town. Then he turns hard right into an alley next to the hardware store, the gearbox binds on the far outside of the screw and the car ends up in the barbershop scaring the heck out of everyone. Guess who gets the blame - the steering box maker. So, the next model the gearbox maker builds the worm so that it is highest in the center and looser on the outside of the screw. That way as it wears it has to be worn out before the center is lower than the outside of the worm - then the farmer will get blame if he crashes with a worn out steering box he knows he should have replaced. So that is why the highest / tightest point in the steering box is the center. That is where it is supposed to be when the front wheels are centered. VW is really clear on this too - the adjustment and center is the highest point. If the car goes straight on the center highest point and the steering wheel is way off remove the steering wheel and put it on straight. But if the steering box is not centered on the high/tight spot going straight ahead the drag link has to be adjusted so it is, then the steering wheel put on straight. The way I do it is make sure the steering wheel is straight ahead on the high spot with the drag link disconnected, then adjust the drag link to attach it with the front wheels straight ahead. Drive it and make the final adjustments at the drag link. If you can't feel the high spot with the drag link off, one needs to follow the Bentley or Orange manual to set the preload. The procedure is slightly different on early bays vs late bays.
late Bay - note that the rubber pointer is moveable. It should point to the center of the raised tab on the high spot with near equal turns from center to lock to lock:
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| ... make the final adjustments at the drag link. ... |
If you replace the drag link you can cause further complications. The drag link can only be adjusted in full term increments. The replacement may not have the threads started the same as OG and you will not be able to get spokes level with the steering box on the high spot with either one turn more. or one turn less, on the drag link. The solution to this is two adjustable tie rods and straight tracking and toe in adjustment with them.
Steering wheel was spokes level on the high spot in the steering box. After installing a new drag link, driving straight ahead the steering wheel was cocked to the left.
Steering wheel was spokes level on the high spot in the steering box. Adjusted the drag link one turn and the steering wheel was cocked to the right when driving straight ahead.
You'll need to do many test drives and 1/4 turn tie rod adjustments, but I'll report that I did it successfully with SGKent's input.
The goal is:
Steering box on the high spot.
Spokes level.
Toe in correct.
Goes straight on a level street.
Aloha
tp |
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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This thread is immensely helpful. Thanks to all who contributed! It is clear to me that I need to go back and start over from scratch: Verify/set steering box, toe-in and camber. I feel like I have a much higher comfort level approaching this whole situation.
I've pulled the steering wheel on and off so many times in the past few weeks messing with the steering coupler, column and steering lock that it's position now is probably meaningless. |
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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Caveat #1
All my experience is with a '69 camper. Later VW's have a different steering box and the procedures and drills may be different. More knowledgeable people will give you better information.
Caveat #2
IMO, when it's done right there is never a need to pull the steering wheel. More knowledgeable people will give you better information.
I've been helped by DBM, SGKent, BD, Aeromech, Telford, Robby, and many others. Now it's my time to contribute my meager and questionable knowledge and experience.
Aloha
tp |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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| Tom Powell wrote: |
Caveat #2
IMO, when it's done right there is never a need to pull the steering wheel.
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The only exception to this caveat, is when you had a dum-dum PO who put the wheel on crooked. Then it's time to find a 27mm socket and a puller (early bay) or a 27mm socket and a beer (late bay.)
Robby
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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Okay, so I adjusted my steering box and per the Bentley procedure, centered the steering and took the remaining slop out by feeling the Pittman Arm slack and removing that slack with the steering box set screw.
Next, I set up the toe in check using the paint on tires/scribe with nail method. I subtracted front and rear readings and come up with 3/8 inch toe in. Looks like the thing to do is turn in the adjustable tie rod by one turn and re-measure. |
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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| Wasted youth wrote: |
| ... took the remaining slop out by feeling the Pittman Arm slack and removing that slack with the steering box set screw. ... |
IMO:
The adjusting screw should be set on the bench or installed without the pittman arm. Adjusting too tight will result in excessive wear/damage internally. Use that adjustment, no load, to define the height of the high spot.
Aloha
tp |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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| Wasted youth wrote: |
Okay, so I adjusted my steering box and per the Bentley procedure, centered the steering and took the remaining slop out by feeling the Pittman Arm slack and removing that slack with the steering box set screw.
Next, I set up the toe in check using the paint on tires/scribe with nail method. I subtracted front and rear readings and come up with 3/8 inch toe in. Looks like the thing to do is turn in the adjustable tie rod by one turn and re-measure. |
Good Job Tom
Steve - yes - that is how VW says to do it. When you get to 1/8" toe in lock the tie rod. With the wheels up turn the steering left then right and see where the high spot is. You should feel a tiny drag thru center but just a tiny bit barely noticeable. With the steering wheel on the high spot put the steering wheel as straight as you can by removing it and putting it back on. I make a mark on the wheel and the shaft when done in case I ever pull it again. Then let the bus down, take it for a drive (I am assuming everything else is locked down.
If the Steering wheel needs adjustment pull it into the garage straight even if the steering wheel is off. Then remove the drag ling at the arm and adjust it so the steering wheel is as straight as you think you can get it. Put the drag link back on and drive it again. You may need to go a turn in either direction like Tom's photos show. When you are as close as you can get with the drag link pull it back in the garage again and loosen the coupling that the shaft goes into that attaches to the steering box. Turn the wheel the tiny bit until it is straight and lock the nut on that clamp. The wheel will be straight. The last step is the one Tom is missing ALTHOUGH he has dual adjustable tie rods so he can adjust that out with them. Every time I have removed the steering gear for anything the steering is no longer straight because that clamp allows a lot of movement even though the bolt is still thru the coupling. It is a pinch clamp.
FWIW the first time one does this is the worst time wise because Lord knows how the prior owner or mechanics messed with it.
There is also one other important adjustment when done with the toe and steering. There are limiting bolts on the beam. when the steering wheel is turned all the way to each side there is a measurement that the tire has to the suspension so it doesn't rub.
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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First... I gotta get this off my chest...
I have never driven any VW air-cooled product that has steering as nice as this bus. I did not know it could be so good. 
Took it for about 25 miles tonight... freeway, country roads, and in town. I put some quick left and right swerves between 40-50 MPH , and the giant loaf of bread actually always wanted to right itself. Amazing.
Okay... now that I'm done peeing all over myself, I will say that I should probably take Tom's advice about not loading up the set screw too much. I did set it per the procedure, but then didn't like it based on steering wheel play, so I tightened it a little more... by doing that, I achieved a close proximity to the desired < 5/8 inch radial slop in Steering Wheel.
However, the steering needs a little nudge to get back to center on its own after a turn, so I bet I have the steering box too tight now. I will back off the set screw just a bit and see how it goes. The high spot/center is somewhat difficult for me to determine, though I can clearly feel Pitmann Arm slop come and go when I adjust the set screw. This is with Drag Link removed.
I have achieved just less than 1/8 inch toe in. Other adjustment caused a fat 3/16" toe in, so I went the other way. Using the paint/scribe method seems to work pretty good and is certainly simple enough. My wife was foolish enough to come out and bring me some ice water, so she got drafted into holding the tape measure while I worked through the process several times looking for that toe-in sweet spot.
Next: Loosen up steering box set screw just a bit, Check over-steering stops/limiting bolts, and if all good reinstall the splash pan! |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| There is also one other important adjustment when done with the toe and steering. There are limiting bolts on the beam. when the steering wheel is turned all the way to each side there is a measurement that the tire has to the suspension so it doesn't rub. |
Unfortunately, not all early (pre-'70-ish) buses have this feature. Colin and I speculated that the limiting stop adjustment could have been implemented implemented when radial tires became an option on the bus. With their different profile and behavior under mastered steering, the radials and bias-ply tires might have required different limiting stops. The adjustment, if you have one, should be done incrementally. Judging the lock with wheels off the ground is easy, but the steering geometry changes greatly as load is put on the front suspension, so the final inspection will have to be done in an empty parking lot after driving at full lock for a few feet in one direction. Then the other.
I adjusted mom's bug (radials were available earlier for bugs) stop off the ground, and the turning radius was abysmal. Adjusted with load on the suspension, the car turns much tighter at full lock without rubbing any tires.
Robbie
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lil-jinx
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Joined: August 14, 2013
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Location: New Brunswick,Canada
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:03 am Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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| lil-jinx wrote: |
| When holding the tape measure on the line use the 2 or 3 inch mark on the tape rather then the hook at the end of it, that give a more accurate measurement. |
That's exactly what we did  ... the tab on the ends of most tape measures are loose, plus it's just easier in this instance to press the tape against the tire right on the inch mark line than it is to try and hold the tab just so perfectly. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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Good job. The spouse usually tell all their friends they helped align the car. It helps because when they go to have a car aligned someday, and the mechanic starts giving them the long story about how much work it is to align the toe-in..... yeah right. Gimme the tape measure..
| Quote: |
| so I bet I have the steering box too tight now |
you did. There are two or three ways to adjust them including using an inch pound torque gauge to actually measure the drag. The factory how to is the easiest and gets the job done. It is from the dealer service book.
These buses do handle quite nice when the owners take the time to get them right. When we go up to Yosemite there is always someone in an SUV that wants so badly to get around me. I'll pull over and let them go when there is a safe spot. But when we get to the curvy section, they can't keep up - and I am just cruising and so comfortable.
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| ...But when we get to the curvy section, they can't keep up - and I am just cruising and so comfortable. |
That's funny!
At some point, I hope to take the bus for its 'Sea Trials' once we get released from the dry dock. Planned route is Fresno-Tioga-Mojave and home. That's mountain and desert driving with likely headwinds over Tehachapi on a route that's just under 600 miles.
Got a ways to go before that is going to happen, but I'll keep digging.  |
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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Backing off the set screw a 1/4 turn at a time, done twice with driving tests seems to allow the steering wheel to return to center much easier and I do not notice any additional operating slop, so I guess it's pretty much dialed in.
Last thing will be to verify steering travel stops. |
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SamboSamba22
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Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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So I managed to ruin two good front tires with a terrible (eye ball) alignment. I have two new tires to replace the badly bald interior tires and am trying to set toe-in.
Just the thought of having a tire shop in my bus period is just nothing but horrid images.
So, I measured the distance between the two rear tires, once at the center of the tire (56 13/16) and anther using the adjustable shower rod method.
When going to the front, my measurements are off by almost two inches! I replicate the same distance on the front as the rear, my two front tires butterfly outwards.
I removed the drag link from the pitman arm and found center on the wheel (it gets tight in the spot and the turns left/right are equal) and have reattached the drag link to the pitman arm.
What on earth is going on here?!?
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Oct. ’67 Double Cab (’68 Crew Cab)
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
What on earth is going on here?!? |
Not sure what you are really asking here. You need to set the toe in by adjusting the length of the right side tierod. Careful measurement is absolutely necessary, as the tread on the front of the tire should be about 1/4" closer together than the rear with only about 1/4" maximum variance allowed.
If your camber needs adjusting you need to do that before you set your toe as adjusting the camber will change the toe. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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| Quote: |
| So I managed to ruin two good front tires with a terrible (eye ball) alignment. I have two new tires to replace the badly bald interior tires and am trying to set toe-in... So, I measured the distance between the two rear tires |
nice try
front tire toe is set between the front side of the front tires and the back of the front tires.
Rear tire toe is set between the front side of the rear tires and the back of the rear tires. You don't mix front and rear tires.
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SamboSamba22
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Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So I managed to ruin two good front tires with a terrible (eye ball) alignment. I have two new tires to replace the badly bald interior tires and am trying to set toe-in... So, I measured the distance between the two rear tires |
nice try
front tire toe is set between the front side of the front tires and the back of the front tires.
Rear tire toe is set between the front side of the rear tires and the back of the rear tires. You don't mix front and rear tires. |
So for clarification, I am measuring the distance between the back of the FRONT tires, in correlation to the FRONT of the FRONT tires.
Basically creating a ever so slightly “V” with the front tires alone?
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The Bus Barn Ltd. Co.
Oct. ’67 Double Cab (’68 Crew Cab)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44412.png]Click to view image[/URL]
March '69 Delivery (Panel Bus)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44414.png]Click to view image[/URL] |
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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for alignment/toe-in tutorial |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So I managed to ruin two good front tires with a terrible (eye ball) alignment. I have two new tires to replace the badly bald interior tires and am trying to set toe-in... So, I measured the distance between the two rear tires |
nice try
front tire toe is set between the front side of the front tires and the back of the front tires.
Rear tire toe is set between the front side of the rear tires and the back of the rear tires. You don't mix front and rear tires. |
So for clarification, I am measuring the distance between the back of the FRONT tires, in correlation to the FRONT of the FRONT tires.
Basically creating a ever so slightly “V” with the front tires alone? |
With that system you will need to be within 1/8" on either side to get your 1/4" toe in. I would think measuring this would be a little difficult but could be used.
I took a string and tied a nut on each end so that the nuts just barely touched the ground on either side of the tire. I put that string in the groove of the tire and measured that way to 1/4" toe in. So far so good, but I haven't put tons of miles on mine yet. It seems to track well and handle fine.
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Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
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Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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