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Radrick123 Samba Member
Joined: June 26, 2016 Posts: 36
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Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:48 pm Post subject: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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I have a '76 T2 Westfalia and took it on myself to redo the rear seat belts for my kids. I was a little hesitant to use the shoulder belt upgrade that goes through the side of the bus and I think my solution is a little more robust. Please tell me what you think.
For my six year old I was able to install a new belt with a shoulder harness on the right side. The '76 has a bolt point right behind the rear seat and below shoulder level but her booster brings it up over the shoulder. Safe? Unsafe?
For my four year old - On the left side I bought a new 5-point carseat that can hold a kid up to 110 lbs. It has a latch system. I put anchors rated at 800lbs each into the slots of the stock seatbelt mounts. I also installed a new seatbelt sandwiched between the anchors and the bus frame. The Latch system for the carseat clamps right into the anchors. I suppose I can also use the new lap belt threaded through the carseat for redundancy? What do you think?
This is just the anchor (rated at 800lbs)
This is the anchor with the Latch attached.
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jtauxe Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2004 Posts: 5780 Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
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Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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i think the weak point in that system is the shackle. Shackles are not made to be pulled on in that orientation. But that could be fixed or added to. _________________ John
"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15143 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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the hole in the threaded part is to safety wire the shackle.
safety wire it at the least. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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Ride_On Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015 Posts: 385 Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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Some may cringe at my solution, but hey...
I too don't think your shackle is at a safe angle. My solution was to buy nylon climbing webbing and tie a loop on each side where you have attached the shackle, with the nylon through the shackle. With a proper knot, it's solid. I check (more than annually) for wear on the webbing - 2yrs and no sign of any wear or slippage. The webbing loop lets the shackle self-correct its angle upon tightening.
We haven't quite got beyond the car seat years. Next year possibly. If we use the lap belt that is mounted now, it'll be without a booster. With a booster if we upgrade to a 3 point harness. I'm leaning towards lap belt as the seat back isn't that high. I suppose we could rig up a head rest too. _________________ 1977 Westfalia 2.0 FI Skills EJ25 w SubaruGears 5sp
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=687254
2018 Golf Sportwagen 4MO DSG (Dieselgated 2013 Golf Wagon TDI DSG) |
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Radrick123 Samba Member
Joined: June 26, 2016 Posts: 36
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Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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I guess I don't fully understand why the pin would be weak. It should also be rated to withstand the pull of an 800lb load, no?
I like your idea about the climbing mesh. Do you have a link? |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22639 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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That looks like a fake stainless shackle from a hardware store. Get rid of it and replace it with real steel. About half of those SS shackles are magnetic.
It's a little hard to size but I think you will need to go up one size for the loads anticipated.
You can buy real hardware from McMaster Carr. If it's made in China, the chances are it's mystery metal, not suitable for a seat belt. _________________ .ssS! |
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Ride_On Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015 Posts: 385 Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6980 Location: Durango, CO
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SamboSamba22 Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2015 Posts: 2772 Location: Benton, Arkansas
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scrivyscriv Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011 Posts: 2922 Location: Memphis
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Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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Radrick123 wrote: |
I guess I don't fully understand why the pin would be weak. It should also be rated to withstand the pull of an 800lb load, no?
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The shackle and pin loads are not the concern, its when you apply a force that tends to pull the shackle arms apart.. that is the weak spot.
A quick google search to verify some stuff I've read in the past:
http://www.car-safety.org/latch.html
LATCH tethers are not safer than seatbelts although they are easier to work with. I had read at one point the system has a deficiency in design that makes it less safe in an accident, but I cannot find it to verify.
your setup looks ok, but I have to say I'm always cautious about alterations or upgrades with seat belts - especially when it's for kids. There are so many violently powerful forces in a car accident that none of us outside of first responders really grasp, and I always find myself second guessing how much I "know" about it all.
Heck I've even been thinking about whether it's a good idea or not to use the weld-in repair panels for seat belt nuts.
EDIT also those are grade 5 bolts, not acceptable for your safety belt application. Use at least grade 8 or equivalent _________________ Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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tommu Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2011 Posts: 618 Location: L.A.
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Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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I installed a retractable belt for my 3 yr old's seat. Other than convenience (as mentioned by scrivyscriv) I didn't see much point in making the latch system work. I do wonder if I should do something for the tether. _________________ |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12721 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:45 am Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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Can you not flip that anchor around, or use a bigger anchor so the car seat can attach directly to the anchor with no intermediate device?
But I like the climbing gear comment. I think my locking carabiner is rated to 24 kN of force closed, and weighs like three grams.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22639 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:45 am Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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SamboSamba22 wrote: |
Glad to see folks including their family our the trails, but one question I have...
This is just the anchor (rated at 800lbs) Whatcha feeding that little one?!? |
F= ma, deleting the vector designations and assuming constant rest mass
Your 40 lb bundle of joy exerts 800 lbs in a 20 g event. _________________ .ssS! |
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GfunkBus76 Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2004 Posts: 378 Location: Cloverdale, BC, Canada
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:38 am Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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tommu wrote: |
I installed a retractable belt for my 3 yr old's seat. Other than convenience (as mentioned by scrivyscriv) I didn't see much point in making the latch system work. I do wonder if I should do something for the tether. |
I upgraded the lapbelt to a new one from amazon (non-retracting)... Added in the tether too though, its required by law here, and makes it feel safer.
PO had a large access hole for fuel tank, so I drilled down through the support beam in the tank area near the access hatch (76 bus). Seems to be sufficient... Hope I don't have to find out the hard way. _________________ Gavin
1976 Westy - Customzation in slow-progress.
-8V TD swap
It Runs! -- http://youtu.be/kT5hOtwiOgk
And drives! - https://youtu.be/rVkoAgeOop0 |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22639 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:17 am Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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asiab3 wrote: |
Can you not flip that anchor around, or use a bigger anchor so the car seat can attach directly to the anchor with no intermediate device?
But I like the climbing gear comment. I think my locking carabiner is rated to 24 kN of force closed, and weighs like three grams.
Robbie |
24 kN is about 5000 lbs SWAG - but you don't experience over 1g when you climb - or more accurately, fall.
I would say thats light for this application. _________________ .ssS! |
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KentABQ Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2016 Posts: 2406 Location: Albuquerque NM
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:18 am Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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It's amazing to see the changes in safety concerns over the generations...
When I was young, lap belts were starting to become common in new cars, and their use was recommended but not mandatory. (I don't remember ever seeing or hearing about child safety seats back then.)
When I was 8, my father (going thru a mid-life crisis and denial of being burdened by a family) bought a '67 Mustang. Since I was the youngest of 3 boys, I got the privilege of sitting in the center of the back seat, which only had two seats and two lap belts. Sitting on the raised section of the seat over the drive train, with one foot on each side it, we drove from Portland to Seattle and down to San Jose.
For safety purposes, I was told to put my hands against the back of the front seats in case of accident. In reality, I would have become a missile thru the front windshield in a head-on. So it is refreshing to read about the thought and work going into retrofitting an old bus to meet modern safety standards.
In retrospect, it's mind boggling how any of us lived thru our youth in th 50's and 60's. n _________________ -Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
---williamM |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22639 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:25 am Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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I got thrown off (almost, a bit of hyperbole) our local social network when I posted that safety seats don't go bad after 5 years because of plastic degradation - to be fair, about half the locals saw it as pure marketing ploy by the seat mfg...but logic, facts, reasoning, testimony of first responders who say they never see failures of material....just didn't matter.
People cling to opinions based on five major factors - recognising which one is in play can save you a lot of time..
Herd mentality
Social Pressure
Facts
Psychology/Religion
Investment _________________ .ssS! |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12721 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:18 am Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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Abscate wrote: |
asiab3 wrote: |
Can you not flip that anchor around, or use a bigger anchor so the car seat can attach directly to the anchor with no intermediate device?
But I like the climbing gear comment. I think my locking carabiner is rated to 24 kN of force closed, and weighs like three grams.
Robbie |
24 kN is about 5000 lbs SWAG - but you don't experience over 1g when you climb - or more accurately, fall.
I would say thats light for this application. |
Hypothetical discussion, but when you go 10 feet between gear placements, you have a 20 foot fall to look out for. Some metric calculators online, plus google unit conversions tell me that a 20-foot fall is about the same as a head on at 35mph. (And yes, a head-on at 35 is the same as hitting an immovable concrete wall at 35.) My bus maxes out around 68-70, so maybe get two carabiners and some expensive rope? On second thought, isn't there an entire industry dedicated to car-seat tie downs? Why aren't we pulling parts off other cars that were, uhh, designed for this?
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Ride_On Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015 Posts: 385 Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:21 am Post subject: Re: How would you rate my child seatbelt upgrade? |
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Why aren't we installing used parts from other cars? Mainly a) they're bespoke, b) there are far easier ways. There is at least one thread on thesamba discussing child seats that discussed retrofitting LATCH hardware.
For us, we wanted to install car seats and could have simply used the lap belts, but they're old enough that they slip a bit. Using the LATCH attachment points makes for pretty quick installation and removal, and they don't budge. Perfect? Heck no! Better? I like to think so. Our top tether strap could be safer though - my F-in-law attached 2 U bolts to the board on the back of the rear seatback.
My wife's family had a few buses growing up. She's one of 3 girls... one of them got to sit on the milk crate somehow tied to the back of the passenger seat. It's okay though - it had a cushion on top We often joke about that...
Oh, and locking carabiners are a non-starter, at least with our Britax Marathon car seats - too broad to fit into the LATCH clips. I got the highest rated screw shut oval ring thingies I could get at the local fastener shop. _________________ 1977 Westfalia 2.0 FI Skills EJ25 w SubaruGears 5sp
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=687254
2018 Golf Sportwagen 4MO DSG (Dieselgated 2013 Golf Wagon TDI DSG) |
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