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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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 Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:34 am Post subject: Re: Head Dilemma |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
| jpaull wrote: |
Getting the right spring for the job, you would be perfect candidate for the ACN Beehives If you stay at .500 lift. These are only 255 lbs @.500 and 117lbs @ 1.5 installed height. If you go with more lift, then Dans beehives would also sold at ACN would be best choice.
They are Beautiful. Nicely polished, and the retainers are only 8 grams!
You can see the difference in size, the chromoly retainers are 19 grams, so you can see why the beehive retainers are so light, at only 8 grams:
https://vwparts.aircooled.net/Beehive-Valvespring-...ng-kit.htm |
What is the O.D. of these springs?
Dan |
Dan,
1.175 Bottom od
.850 Bottom id
.960 top od
.640 top id |
They are pretty, But they are too small and would have poorer control of harmonics with the smaller bottom O.D. You need as big a bottom to top size differential as will fit, that is why mine are a full 1.25" bottom O.D.
Optimal mechanical integrity is more important than a few grams here or there. My retainers are a few grams heavier because of the big offset. The 5 1/4 coils of these springs will also stress the spring more than mine for a shorter life.
When engineering something you have to weigh the pro and cons choosing what will work best, not what will make the best ad copy. How many grams is easy for the consumer to understand and the temptation to pic that is strong.
Perfect example of this is POS stock style 1.25 rockers. The consumer thinks, "well VW choose this so it must be good" Wrong, VW choose it because it was cheaper and would work fine for the low lift use. Porsche choose the better setup because they wanted more lift.
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Head Dilemma |
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Some good points Dan regarding the spring deminsions. I think you can be correct, however the amount of difference in the advantages you mentioned is small. Will they not last as long as yours? Maybe. Will they run longer then all the $50 sets of cheap ass springs out there? I think so. And the lower pressure/ability/quality is worth it to me.
Im with ya on your rocker example, I never go with the "well vw did it that way so they know what they are doing best" theory.
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Head Dilemma |
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| jpaull wrote: |
Some good points Dan regarding the spring deminsions. I think you can be correct, however the amount of difference in the advantages you mentioned is small. Will they not last as long as yours? Maybe. Will they run longer then all the $50 sets of cheap ass springs out there? I think so. And the lower pressure/ability/quality is worth it to me.
Im with ya on your rocker example, I never go with the "well vw did it that way so they know what they are doing best" theory. |
Spring pressure?
Give me the specs on your project and it's usage and I will give an opinion. Keep in mind, too much pressure will do less damage than not enough. As will out of control harmonics.
Dan |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Head Dilemma |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
| jpaull wrote: |
Some good points Dan regarding the spring deminsions. I think you can be correct, however the amount of difference in the advantages you mentioned is small. Will they not last as long as yours? Maybe. Will they run longer then all the $50 sets of cheap ass springs out there? I think so. And the lower pressure/ability/quality is worth it to me.
Im with ya on your rocker example, I never go with the "well vw did it that way so they know what they are doing best" theory. |
Spring pressure?
Give me the specs on your project and it's usage and I will give an opinion. Keep in mind, too much pressure will do less damage than not enough. As will out of control harmonics.
Dan |
2234, with cb2292 and 1.3 cb rockers = .491 valve lift.
Daily driver, 40 miles per day, 6500 chip in msd box.
If i had more lift, or more rpms I would go with your beehive kit. But with my setup I wanted johns ACN beehive kit.
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Head Dilemma |
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Heads? carbs? Exhaust?
Dan |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Head Dilemma |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
Heads? carbs? Exhaust?
Dan |
Ported 42x37 050's, 48 idfs, 1-5/8 merged
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Head Dilemma |
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Wow, I hope you don't mind if I let loose. I don't know how it happened but your combo is all wrong. You are leaving potential low end torque on the table by having too big of an exhaust, carbs, and heads for your cam choice. You are leaving potential top end power on the table because the cam is way too mild for the rest of the engine.
In other words you are loosing potential everywhere. Change the cam or change the heads, carbs, and exhaust. You need at least about 260 @ .050" to match what the engine is capable of. For anybody that does not know the cam he picked, it is 234 @ .050"
Do you know what your heads intake port volume is?
Let me know what you want to do and I can help with the choices.
Dan |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Head Dilemma |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
Wow, I hope you don't mind if I let loose. I don't know how it happened but your combo is all wrong. You are leaving potential low end torque on the table by having too big of an exhaust, carbs, and heads for your cam choice. You are leaving potential top end power on the table because the cam is way too mild for the rest of the engine.
In other words you are loosing potential everywhere. Change the cam or change the heads, carbs, and exhaust. You need at least about 260 @ .050" to match what the engine is capable of. For anybody that does not know the cam he picked, it is 234 @ .050"
Do you know what your heads intake port volume is?
Let me know what you want to do and I can help with the choices.
Dan |
lol Dan, your a goof. 2234 is the cc's, not Cb2234 cam. Like I mentioned before, its CB2292 Cam, which is 270° @ .050"
The 050 intake port volume is now at 70cc's
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Head Dilemma |
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Opps, my bad. You still have a flaw. Your combo is capable of pulling hard to 7k if your ports and chambers are good. IMO 255lbs of spring is not enough for that kind of revs. But if you limit it to 6500 you should be ok.
Dan |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Head Dilemma |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
Opps, my bad. You still have a flaw. Your combo is capable of pulling hard to 7k if your ports and chambers are good. IMO 255lbs of spring is not enough for that kind of revs. But if you limit it to 6500 you should be ok.
Dan |
I hear ya. But I have worked very hard on every detail for a engine that pulls to 6500. When its together I will have it on my dyno and squeeze every foot pound /hp out of it.
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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