Random acts of non starting

[Bob Brugge]

Maybe once a month I jump in and turn the key and nothing. Lights come on, wipers work, etc. Rocking the car in gear doesn't help, yelling at it doesn't help, nothing really seems to cause the issue or help it except for a 20 to 30 minute visit with the battery charger.
I have new battery, gen, and voltage regulator.
I do have 50 yr/old wiring. There is a rats nest of things under my bonnett that make me want to rip it out and fix it, alas, I have neither the skill nor the patience.
I know there are plenty of brown wires that have busted ends on them and don't seem to have any logical place to plug into. I also know that there are no shortage, pun intended, of things that can and will go hay wire if not properly grounded.
So whats a VW owner to do? Can I run all of those brown wires into one big lug and tap a hole somewhere? I would love to repair the wiring to factory condition, but all it takes is money, or a higher IQ than I have, which isn't low.
Any reason why out of the blue, once a month, that this would happen?
The last time it happened was 15 minutes after I shut it off after a ten mile drive. Super annoying!
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[67rustavenger]

Check your ignition switch wiring and contacts. Many times the switch is faulty and makes you think you have an engine/starting issue.

Also those loose brown wires are your friends. Find out where they ground and get those sorted.

Good Luck.
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[Multi69s]

It might not be a bad idea to rig up a multi ground point like you said. However, before you do, follow each wire to its source to make sure a PO didn't add some thing wonky. The reason that the grounds are so critical is that the electrons from the battery actually flow from negative to positive (here come the flames). Back to your issue. I would tend to look at the ignition switch. Especially if the starter doesn't click or do anything after just a 15 minute rest. The next time it does it, do one of two things. In both cases jack the back up safely.

1) if you have a helper, have them to the key to the start position. While they do this, use a test light to see if you are getting any power to the starter solenoid.

2) If no helper available use a screw driver and jump across the starter to see if anything happens.

either one of these test can help with what path to take.
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73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
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[empi3]

[Floating VW]

No, the other way was correct. The electrons actually do flow from the "negative" post of the battery, into the chassis, through the electrical device, and back to the battery through the "positive" post. This is why you sometimes get a spark when you remove/reconnect the positive battery cable, but not when you remove/reconnect the negative one. The car's chassis is full of electrons, and so is the negative terminal of the battery, so there's no flow. But the positive terminal is empty, so whenever a large enough path is created from the chassis to the positive terminal, ZAP!, all those happy electrons just can't wait to get in.

The terms "positive" and "negative" are misleading in relation to the flow of electrons. Whoever invented the battery could just as easily have used the terms "pink" and "green" if he had wanted to, but I'm glad he didn't.
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[Multi69s]

There are two ways of describing current flow (conventional), or electron theory. Some books claim that they are both right, in conventional, electrons flow from positive to negative, and in electron theory, they flow from negative to positive. However, at the college that I teach we only teach electron theory. But for the average person it doesn't really matter, but if someone wants a dissertation on the subject PM me. I don't want to put everyone to sleep.
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69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[andk5591]

As mentioned check and clean all associated connections. There are 2 things I see routinely. Dirty/loose battery connections and dirty/loose connctions at the starter. Very often its the small wire to the starter that has a crudded up connector. I have had one literally come apart in my hands. If all of that doesnt do it, then it is likely the switch. The screwdriver test will confirm it after you have done the above.
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[Abscate]

[Bob Brugge]

[heimlich]

If it is your switch, or even worse there is an electrical issue you might be doing more damage to your switch than you want. You could be replacing the switch very soon.

Do you have a hard start relay to protect your switch?
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[garyt]

Had this and it was a bad starter motor (after much checking of batteries and alternators). Bought a Bosch one and it has been fine ever since.

[andk5591]

Read this - just went through it.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=686401&highlight=
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...

[Patty B.]

Had a similar thing happen a few years ago--had a new battery--it was the battery. Just replaced it with a new one--no more problems. Something else to think about. Good luck!
(Of course I've probably just jinxed myself for new starting problems lol)

[VW_Jimbo]

[RVAmike97]

You guys talking about electrons also forgot to mention that electrons are negatively charged, unless I missed it.

[ashman40]

Starter problems:
The above suggestion to use a screwdriver to jump a connection between the battery cable stud and the #50 terminal on the starter solenoid will test the starter. This provides a direct battery source for the 12v needed to energize the starter solenoid via the #50 terminal. Doing this bypasses the 20ft of wiring that normally powers the solenoid. If this works every time you short the two points, you know your starter is good.
Next, test the voltage that reaches the starter solenoid via the red #50 wire from the ignition switch. You do this by finding the #50 junction below the rear seat and testing this wire for 12v when you turn the key to the START position. If the voltage is lower than 12.0v or is intermittent you may have a problem at the ignition switch or wiring. Cleaning the connections between the battery, the fuse box, the ignition switch and the junction below the rear seat can increase the voltage that makes it to the starter solenoid. Intermittent voltage is typically an internal ignition switch problem. It is a sign you may need a new ignition switch (or you need to rebuild the old one).


Brown ground wires:
You cannot just grab all the loose brown wires and group them together and ground them... here is why. Brown wires in Beetles are ground wires. This you understand. But as an example picture this... you have a brown wire running between a bulb holder and ground. If this wire is in place the bulb works fine and turns ON when it should. If the ground end of this brown wire comes loose and you find it, reconnecting it to ground will restore the circuit. But what happens if the bulb end of the brown wire comes loose? If you ground it without understanding where it runs you now have a disconnected bulb and a brown wire running from ground to another ground.... useless.

It only makes sense to ground the end of the brown wire that should be grounded. Don't assume that all loose brown wires are the end of the circuit. Trace the wire and determine where it runs. If it runs to a ground then it has come loose from the devices it was grounding. There are also some ground wires that are daisy-chained. There may be three different devices on the same brown wire and the ground point may NOT be one of the ends.
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AshMan40
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