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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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 Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:14 pm Post subject: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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Missing or forgot to put in your Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer? That's going to cost you!
See Bentley, Chapt. 5, Page 21, Figure 7-3, Part 21
This is what can happen if the Fan Hub Spacer is left out. The binding might not be enough to make you think you left a part out, just that the air box and fan relationship is not perfect. You think "Well, that figures, this is a FrankenEngine, and nothing has been perfect so far anyway..." But then, you get an oil leak from somewhere deep... guess what? The Fan Hub Spacer was left out, and now the fan hub bolts are too close to the oil seal. They wear into the seal, and the fan has already made a new home into the air box.
Here is a close up of the new fan clearance... 
Fan hub full of oil, aluminum shavings and oil seal "sawdust":
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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Steve I am so sorry to see that if those photos were from your motor. I hope those are from the forum but still feel bad for whomever it happened to.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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No, that's my engine. This was the 'junkyard' engine that I installed in the '73 bus to get it running to sell. Then we decided to keep the bus, so now I have an unknown, old engine with some refresh work done to it to make it reasonably dependable... which was no big deal because it was going to be sold. 
So now I get to chase cute little things for awhile...  until I install one or the other: the 1700 engine that I already have prepped for rebuilding that is still in boxes, or the nice 2.0 fuel injected arrangement awaiting my time and money.
I found a spare in my stash:
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KentABQ
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Joined: September 11, 2016
Posts: 2406
Location: Albuquerque NM
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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Hey, don't forget you promised the 2.0 to me! 
_________________
-Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"
"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea
Bus ownership via emoticons:
        ---williamM |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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| KentPS wrote: |
| Hey, don't forget you promised the 2.0 to me! |
He makes that promise to everyone... 
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| KentPS wrote: |
| Hey, don't forget you promised the 2.0 to me! |
He makes that promise to everyone... |
How about a worn and questionable 1.7 instead?  |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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ha ha ha . Funny Steve.
Get it running and I can promise you someone will come to your door interested in it, even if it is noise abatement who shows up ... No kidding aside - there are more buses needing motors than their are motors available. JR told me the low stock of cases and motors was why he sold off his business a couple years ago - too much trouble trying to find good motors as cores to build from.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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| SGKent wrote: |
ha ha ha . Funny Steve.
Get it running and I can promise you someone will come to your door interested in it, even if it is noise abatement who shows up ... No kidding aside - there are more buses needing motors than their are motors available. JR told me the low stock of cases and motors was why he sold off his business a couple years ago - too much trouble trying to find good motors as cores to build from. |
Its just going to get worse. As all the rest of the decent 'Early Bays' get sucked up by people who have given up looking for 'Splitties', the truly crappy early bays will then get sucked up, all that will left are the 'late bays' with the expensive Type 4 fuel injected engine. I hoarded as much as I could. |
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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So I found some time to fix this problem. I got the new oil seal, Victor Reinz P/N 021105247A
http://www.busdepot.com/021105247a
This is basically your assembled product, just for this picture to show the arrangement:
I did not see or feel any damage to the high-mileage engine, so I carefully installed the seal.
You can see the importance of the spacer in the next two pictures...
Without spacer:
With spacer:
You can do all of this work without removing the cooling air housing or any of the tin. The parts got a good cleaning and reinstallation was easy. Torque values are listed in the table in your Bentley.
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5995
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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The question I have is: why didn't they just make the fan or the mounting collar that much thicker?
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
| The question I have is: why didn't they just make the fan or the mounting collar that much thicker? |
Its a good question but It is most probably so that they would not have to have multiple fan castings. There are already at least two....the early 411 casting with the aerodynamic center hub and the late one for the bus with the air pump coupling.....and the wide range of engraved timing mark systems distributed across these two over the years.
The 411 engines had the spacer from the beginning.....most probably because the location behind the fan was the only simple place ro put an accesory pulley for either air conditioning or for other pump types and extra alternators etc. for emergency vehicles ....which mount to the flat space provided at the left end of the shroud. Most of these had threaded mount points from early on.
Also.....the earliest fan lists a 39mm bolt (to july of 1972...part# 021 119 127). The later fan....still before the air pump version of the fan....lists a 45mm bolt (from August of 1972 ...part # N 10 246 4).
The flat faced fan with the drive lug for the air pump.....measures from the washer seating face to the back of the casting ...34mm and the steel crank hub is 7.5mm thick....so without spacer and with a lock washer the late bus fan requires a minimun 42mm bolt length.
The early 411 fan with center spinner has a 26.5mm depth in its recessed bolt areas from the washer seat to the crank hub....add the 7.5mm hub thickness and you get a minimum bolt length and without spacer of 34mm.
And....the accesory pulley thickness is 4mm. That leaves 1mm of bopt length to protrude through the hub.
Its far simpler to use a shim if you do not plan to use an accessory pulley. And or...its much simpler to just change bolt lengths instead of machining a part and creating a whole
Ray |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
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Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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I knew if there was a reason, Ray would know what it was
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2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
| I knew if there was a reason, Ray would know what it was |
Oh no.....not saying I have the definitive answer at all. But the fact that the spacer came from day one on type 4 engines....as well as provision for accesory pulley and mount at a bare minimum...and optional AC at best.....seems to imply that they thought about it and the ....or "A" spacer would have to be there unless they had a pulley installed.
The earliest 411 I have ever played with...seriously.....was a first month 1971....august of 1970. And.....like every one I have played with up to 1975.....had wiring built into the main harness for future AC unit clutch (10 gauge black with purple stripe wire in the main loom).
Even though we are speaking about buses.....when a potential "why did they do this" oddity pops up...I will look at the bus parts book ....but I always also go back to tbe 411/412 parts book to see if the oddity was a legacy from the original type 4 application.
But I will be the first to say that my 411/412 book is not perfectly complete.....it does show the early stuff....68-70....but only dates to August of 1972 so it only lists the start of the 412.
The peculiar thing is that this parts book shows only one fan style in the diagram. The early one with the cone and rubber spinner cap.....but....as I listed in my post.....it shows two bolt lengths.
The longer bolt "seems" to imply that after August of 1972 they used a fan that was thicker....or is simply the late fan just like bus....with no counter sink for the bolts and the flat can floor with the air pump coupler.
They list no engine # start point...just "from Eng. No. August 1972".....which makes sense as its a new year and last years book. They dont know the engine # yet.
I think we have said this before. We need a pictorial "fan survey" and index of all the options out there including industrial and 914 (may have already been done).
Ray |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51128
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| sjbartnik wrote: |
| I knew if there was a reason, Ray would know what it was |
Oh no.....not saying I have the definitive answer at all. But the fact that the spacer came from day one on type 4 engines....as well as provision for accesory pulley and mount at a bare minimum...and optional AC at best.....seems to imply that they thought about it and the ....or "A" spacer would have to be there unless they had a pulley installed.
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Don't forget the type 127 industrial motor, it has a belt driven governor there and uses the bolt holes on the LH end of the shroud, the A/C may have been an afterthought using the governor mount and drive locations.
I suspect you are right regarding the "one casting for all" deal, if they planned on some using a pulley there a simple spacer is easier to manufacture and stock than an alternate fan.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| sjbartnik wrote: |
| I knew if there was a reason, Ray would know what it was |
Oh no.....not saying I have the definitive answer at all. But the fact that the spacer came from day one on type 4 engines....as well as provision for accesory pulley and mount at a bare minimum...and optional AC at best.....seems to imply that they thought about it and the ....or "A" spacer would have to be there unless they had a pulley installed.
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Don't forget the type 127 industrial motor, it has a belt driven governor there and uses the bolt holes on the LH end of the shroud, the A/C may have been an afterthought using the governor mount and drive locations.
I suspect you are right regarding the "one casting for all" deal, if they planned on some using a pulley there a simple spacer is easier to manufacture and stock than an alternate fan. |
Yep....no telling what all they had in mind for that pulley location.
And by the way Wasted Youth....dont feel bad.....I have trashed the seal...I think twice. Once because I had semi-stripped crappy triple square bolts on a 411 apecific fan so I swpped them for some ground down CV bolts......and I dic not trim them far enough. Then again....using bolts from the Junkyard for a later fan.....which were longer. Ray |
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Amskeptic
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Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
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| Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Even though we are speaking about buses.....when a potential "why did they do this" oddity pops up...I will look at the bus parts book ....but I always also go back to tbe 411/412 parts book to see if the oddity was a legacy from the original type 4 application.
But I will be the first to say that my 411/412 book is not perfectly complete.....it does show the early stuff....68-70....but only dates to August of 1972 so it only lists the start of the 412.
The peculiar thing is that this parts book shows only one fan style in the diagram. The early one with the cone and rubber spinner cap.....but....as I listed in my post.....it shows two bolt lengths.
The longer bolt "seems" to imply that after August of 1972 they used a fan that was thicker....or is simply the late fan just like bus....with no counter sink for the bolts and the flat can floor with the air pump coupler.
Ray |
The aerodynamic fan shape was the initial optimum engineering fan shape. The Type 4 got to enjoy it the longest.
But when the 1973 bus (and the subsequent air pump-equipped Porsche 912) came along with its horrendous emission control air pump that just had to ruin that nice fan for the air pump pulley, Volkswagen already knew that the Type 4 cars days were numbered. The new longer bolt/thicker flat fan hub was the "we're done with re-engineering these engines". I think they also concluded as did Jake, that there was no loss of efficiency in the flat hubs versus the aerodynamic hubs. From there on out to the latest air-cooled Vanagon fans, it was just the same old same old flat snout fan.
Colin
(p.s I have run across a couple of early fans with gouged out rear main seals even with the spacer in place. These unfortunate engines must have accidentally gotten later bolts picked up off the counter/floor?)
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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| Amskeptic wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Even though we are speaking about buses.....when a potential "why did they do this" oddity pops up...I will look at the bus parts book ....but I always also go back to tbe 411/412 parts book to see if the oddity was a legacy from the original type 4 application.
But I will be the first to say that my 411/412 book is not perfectly complete.....it does show the early stuff....68-70....but only dates to August of 1972 so it only lists the start of the 412.
The peculiar thing is that this parts book shows only one fan style in the diagram. The early one with the cone and rubber spinner cap.....but....as I listed in my post.....it shows two bolt lengths.
The longer bolt "seems" to imply that after August of 1972 they used a fan that was thicker....or is simply the late fan just like bus....with no counter sink for the bolts and the flat can floor with the air pump coupler.
Ray |
The aerodynamic fan shape was the initial optimum engineering fan shape. The Type 4 got to enjoy it the longest.
But when the 1973 bus (and the subsequent air pump-equipped Porsche 912) came along with its horrendous emission control air pump that just had to ruin that nice fan for the air pump pulley, Volkswagen already knew that the Type 4 cars days were numbered. The new longer bolt/thicker flat fan hub was the "we're done with re-engineering these engines". I think they also concluded as did Jake, that there was no loss of efficiency in the flat hubs versus the aerodynamic hubs. From there on out to the latest air-cooled Vanagon fans, it was just the same old same old flat snout fan.
Colin
(p.s I have run across a couple of early fans with gouged out rear main seals even with the spacer in place. These unfortunate engines must have accidentally gotten later bolts picked up off the counter/floor?) |
There really is a bit of difference between the shapely early fan and the flat faced later fan....but as noted....it does not really change anything in cooling.
The early aerodynamic hub fan puts out slightly higher velocity at just about the same volume as the late fan.
I could consistently measure it on the 1/2 side right at the outlet of the shroud....but there was too much turbulence on the 3/4 side near the flap...to get any sense of difference. Thats the shroud.
It makes no difference in cooling.
And....at highway speed in the 3000-4000 rpm range the flat faced fan has a slightly noisier and distinctive harmonic. Its probably nothing you can hear in a bus with all of that metal, engine compartment volume and distance to the driver...but you can hear it in a 411/412. Its not annoying or louder....just different.
Back when I was testing some mods and upgrades I was swapping fans back and forth and though the change in pitch was a tire wear issue or a rear wheel bearing starting to hum.
The difference in velocity is caused because with the curved hub...the fan floor simply has more surface area. These fans work by accelerating incoming air in contact with the floor by centrifugal force....and slinging it into the blades where its compressed and ejected.
So I would say that you are spot on that the early fan was probably engineered to be an optimum....on a flow bench with little exploration as to whether it could be simpler or different or even needed to be. Ray |
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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each blade is an air foil. The best thing one can do is clean them up so the nicks and dings on the leading and trailing edges are minimal.
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Fan Hub Spacer |
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I have one of those snout fans with the rubber tip. I was saving it for the 1700cc engine I will eventually build.
Anything about that fan I need to be concerned with? |
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