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Captain Spalding Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005 Posts: 2519 Location: . . . in denial.
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:58 pm Post subject: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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Hello everyone.
I'm running a 1915 with a deep sump, oil cooler and fan, and remote spin-on oil filter. Can I run it without the strainer? Please offer an explanation with your opinion.
Thanks in advance,
Spalding |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26740 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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I think you should read up on it first, then ask questions.
Threads I used the word "slurp'
oh ignore five lug....his thread comes up in any search at this point!
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc..._chars=200 |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 6985 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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I personally feel it's a bad idea to get rid of the strainer as it acts as a decent prefilter to keep any potential debris from obstructing the pickup tube or messing up the pump. In fact, if you take a look at many oil pumps found in more modern engines equipped with spin on filters, you'll find the pump inlet has some type of screen or guard to protect the inlet. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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fivelugshortaxle Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011 Posts: 4254 Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:04 am Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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Yeah, ignore the guy who successfully built his first big stroke motor in spite of the naysayers. No failed cam or lifters on break in. Purrs like a kitten at idle and lights up the tires with ease.
Be careful who you listen to on here....they get off on leading people astray.
Listen to modok....read read and read some more. You'll figure it out. _________________ Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26740 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:42 am Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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Ha! nothing personal man. If we did discuss oil pickups in your build thread then it's probably a fine resource also but I'm not "going in there" to find it. |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16754 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:12 am Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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Personal opinion is that it doesnt hurt. The only problem is that you may forget you have it and it should be pulled, checked and cleaned on occasion. I think I do the one on our buggy every third of fourth oil change (deep sump and filter/pump) _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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Howard 111 Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:41 am Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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I never put that screen in if I'm running a full flow with filter. If you have chunks big enough to be stopped by the screen, you won't go much longer anyway. The filter catches anything big or small before it has a chance to go through the engine. _________________ 1973 Karmann Ghia
Turbocharged, Fuel Injected
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=531270 |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Q-Dog Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010 Posts: 8687 Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:30 am Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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Howard 111 wrote: |
I never put that screen in if I'm running a full flow with filter. If you have chunks big enough to be stopped by the screen, you won't go much longer anyway. The filter catches anything big or small before it has a chance to go through the engine. |
But isn't your filter AFTER the pump? _________________ Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
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Howard 111 Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:00 am Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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Technical Information from Berg
Oil strainer information. An area of extreme importance. The inlet or suction side of any pump is extremely limited in what it can do as compared to the pressure side and should never be impaired in any way, whereas the pressure side is capable of overcoming a great deal of extra resistance. For that reason, I have not used the stock oil strainer in any of my high performance street or race engines since 1966. I found that it often caused too much restriction on the suction side of the oil pump with a little higher performance and high RPM engines. This problem was traced to oil starvation and all out bearing and/or crankshaft failures from the oil not being able to pass through the stock restrictive oil strainer screen fast enough to provide adequate flow to the pump.
Contamination was a concern, however, all of my engines from 1961-on had full flow oil filters protecting the engine. Some concern about metal particles going into the oil pump before filtering was solved when I went to the farm supply house and bought a "cow" magnet that is about 1/2" round by 3" long. I hose clamped it on the outside of the pickup tube extension for the larger sump. I have used this configuration successfully for over 30 years. For those that do not know, a cow magnet is what they feed the cows to pick up metal (such as broken barbed wire) from the stomach and pass it out of their system.
Another concern is the weight of the oil. Remember, the heavier the oil, the less it lubricates. We run 20 weight in our race engines and 10-30 weight in all street engines. Only if the temperature is constantly above 80-85 degrees would I consider 10-40 weight. 5-30 should be used when temperature falls to below 45 degrees. For freezing temperatures straight 10 weight would be my choice.
The point is, if bearing life is substandard or failures have occurred, these are items you should be looking at.
Originated by Gene Berg in 1964 _________________ 1973 Karmann Ghia
Turbocharged, Fuel Injected
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=531270 |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31268 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:20 am Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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I have the strainer on both my engines with the CB Maxi2 pump/filter.
1835cc engine - this way since 1986
1600 engine - this way since early 2017
Yes, the strainer has been clean when I checked it. No, I do not drop the strainer that often now. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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pondervwmike Samba Member
Joined: June 16, 2017 Posts: 373 Location: Ponder(Dallas) Texas USA
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:46 am Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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I have heard to keep the strainer to stabilize the pickup tube. Just my 2 cents I have no personal experience. _________________ 1967 Cal Look Beetle Street Car in re-restoration,customization. Mom and Dad bought it in 1983 when I was 4.
2010 VW Tiguan
2000 BMW 528i
1997 Jeep Cherokee
2127cc build thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=681556&highlight= |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002 Posts: 12785 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:57 am Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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we used to recommend no strainer, but over 10 years ago changed back to keeping the strainer even with a full flow filter, because we saw a few cases of metal fatigued pick up tubes from vibration. The strainer dampens it so it never occurs. It's more prevalent on the lengthened ones for deep sumps.
If you are worried about restriction, get the cheaper strainers, they have a coarser mesh than the others. Your focus is to screen out big chunks, and stabilize the pick up tube. _________________ It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 4394 Location: Brew City
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:37 am Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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Howard 111 wrote: |
Technical Information from Berg
Oil strainer information. An area of extreme importance. The inlet or suction side of any pump is extremely limited in what it can do as compared to the pressure side and should never be impaired in any way, whereas the pressure side is capable of overcoming a great deal of extra resistance. For that reason, I have not used the stock oil strainer in any of my high performance street or race engines since 1966. I found that it often caused too much restriction on the suction side of the oil pump with a little higher performance and high RPM engines. This problem was traced to oil starvation and all out bearing and/or crankshaft failures from the oil not being able to pass through the stock restrictive oil strainer screen fast enough to provide adequate flow to the pump.
Contamination was a concern, however, all of my engines from 1961-on had full flow oil filters protecting the engine. Some concern about metal particles going into the oil pump before filtering was solved when I went to the farm supply house and bought a "cow" magnet that is about 1/2" round by 3" long. I hose clamped it on the outside of the pickup tube extension for the larger sump. I have used this configuration successfully for over 30 years. For those that do not know, a cow magnet is what they feed the cows to pick up metal (such as broken barbed wire) from the stomach and pass it out of their system.
Another concern is the weight of the oil. Remember, the heavier the oil, the less it lubricates. We run 20 weight in our race engines and 10-30 weight in all street engines. Only if the temperature is constantly above 80-85 degrees would I consider 10-40 weight. 5-30 should be used when temperature falls to below 45 degrees. For freezing temperatures straight 10 weight would be my choice.
The point is, if bearing life is substandard or failures have occurred, these are items you should be looking at.
Originated by Gene Berg in 1964 |
Sorry...Gene Berg was/is a genius....but....a lot of assumptions had to be made to make that statement.
I highly doubt the stock strainer was a source of restriction. I have seen oil pumps on LARGE industrial engines, machines and trucks...all of which have a strainer not much different or larger than a VW...with oil pumps MUCH larger than any VW....and with oil weights heavier than we use....and they have 0 issues with restrictions.
The actual open area of the strainer is MASSIVE compared to the open port diameter of the pump...and the mesh size is actually quite large. Unlesss you are using 50 weight oil and its "0" outside...the chances of the actual strainer being a restriction to oil flowing back to the center through the mesh to the oil pickup for even the largest non-dry sump type pump...is remote.
And....exactly how can you determine if its the actual strainer being restrictive or so many other items being restrictive...as he noted he was also using full flow oil filters...none of which were stock on a type 1...and through hoses, fittings, thermostats etc....you likely had many more chances for upstream restriction than downstream restriction.
I see no downsides to using the strainer. Ray |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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all bergeites aside.... ( no I wont read what berg said,thought or was quoted as saying) just use the strainer so it keeps shit from the filter .The filter catches small particulate from wear. the screen catches big shit witch may not make it to the filter due to the oil pump locking up from the big shit trying to get through it. |
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Captain Spalding Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005 Posts: 2519 Location: . . . in denial.
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:33 am Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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Thanks everyone for your opinions. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33875 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: Re: With remote spin-on oil filter, omit strainer? |
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I cleaned my strainer on my rebuilt engine (I'll have to check but less than 5000 miles) and I caught a small piece of plastic and some probably non-magnetic flakes in the strainer, even though I have a post-pump full flow filter. I'll take pictures next week and share, but I'd rather not send that crap through the pump. Late model screens have a spring bypass, too. |
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