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Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly
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Canadian VW
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:01 am    Post subject: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

I spent last night fighting with the steering on my car. It has a new Airkewld front beam with new everything. Ball joints, tie rods, TRW steering box, bearings, bushings ECT. The steering coupler was replaced with a new universal joint and that is tight and turns freely.

Link to my set up from Airkewld.
http://www.airkewld.com/Stage-2-PRObuilt-Air-Ride-Beam-Complete-2203-p/2203.htm

My coupler to universal set up
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The steering wheel has 4 to 5 inches of play and no matter what I do with the steering box adjustment screw. The only change with the adjustment screw is how hard it is to turn the wheel but the 4 to 5 inches of play still remains.

I took the top off the steering box and it is full of grease. Put it back together and topped the grease off through the nipples. Internally the steering box looked good but I am not an expert. Greased all 4 fittings on the beam. ball joints and tie rods are sealed and move freely.

I have tried a few different sets of instructions for adjustment and nothing has worked. With the screw tightened the wheels will definitely not come back to center after a corner. All checks done with the car off the ground. Alignment was done a couple weeks ago and the car drives straight.

Any suggestions or insight?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:22 am    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

Before anybody starts bitching about how shitty these are, read the following:

You NEVER should have messed with the adjustment screws....Kind of late now. I have an almost brand new TRW box that is junk because the owner cranked stuff down and ruined it. They are not as forgiving as an original box. I have installed quite a few of these and I just installed another one in a car a few days ago with no issues.

I am pretty certain that I know where you screwed up, so review my procedure for installing a TRW box.

After old parts are removed, Take the new box and turn fully one direction and then the other. Count the turns and set the box to the mid point. There should be a long mark on the shaft that will be at the top. If its not just turn a little until it is. Really, I find its always right at the middle. THIS IS HOW YOU LEAVE IT WHEN YOU INSTALL.

You then adjust tie rods etc so its really close with your wheel straight ahead. I use a couple long pieces of metal angle clamped to the face of the drums to get a visual of the front wheels relative to the body so that both sides seem pretty much parallel to each other (of course you have some toe in).

At this point adjust your toe for about 1/8" in the front (make adjustments on bothe sides so you dont mess up your center.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

I can definitely do this once I get the 4 to 5 inches of play out of the steering wheel. I dont think adjusting the tie rods and setting toe will solve this problem.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

If the box is way off center, it might.

The box is designed to have minimum play at center, and progressively more play (several inches) as you approach full left or right lock.

If you adjust it tight when off-center, it will drag or bind when at true center, and wear out fast, causing even more play. The damage may have already been done.

Find where the play is originating by putting the car on jackstands, and having a friend wiggle the steering wheel at center and also off center. Without losing a finger in the process, you crawl underneath and watch/feel for play anywhere.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

The play I have is at center where the box is currently bolted and was bolted by Airkewld when they assembled the beam. I am pretty sure I am even in turns left/right to lock but will check again when I get home.

The car has been driven about 200KMS on all the new parts. Hopefully not worn out already but stranger things have happened.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

Does the input shaft have a scribe mark or ring like in this photo?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Is the box clamped tightly to the beam?
Is the Pitman arm tight to the output shaft?
Again, a quick look while someone jiggles the steering wheel will show you where the play is. Only if you narrow it to the box itself should you try the adjustments, and that top screw is the last adjustment to try, not the first.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

You missed my point entirely...Its all about starting with the box centered. You have to THEN adjust tie rods so the wheels are straight with the box centered. Read ALL of the words that I had typed.


Also, you do NOT have a real serious scribe mark, but its there. I totally agree that you started off with the box off center and then tried to adjust the play out of it.

Like I said - I had just installed another one a matter of days ago and the car drives well except that the new ball joints are still a little tight.....
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

Yes, to emphasize for those who may not have walked this path before... The idea of "centered steering box" is neither of the following:
- the steering wheel is horizontal
- the car drives straight
Instead it refers to the internal position of the gears inside where there is a minimum of play, which you can't see once assembled (at least not without specialized tools). That is why VW or rebuilders put a mark vertically on the input shaft.

Depending on your axle, tires, etc., the true steering box center may not be exactly halfway between left and right lock. On some cars, the steering box is not the limit stop-- the Pitman arm may have fixed or adjustable stops that will throw you off. Best way is to take off the Pitman arm, or both inner tie rod ends, and then you are sure the box's internal stops are your left and right limits, THEN find the halfway point, and mark the input shaft so you never have to do this again.

That's also why you start with the box centered, then adjust both the steering wheel on its splined shaft to horizontal, and the tie rods make the car track straight with the correct toe-in.

Shortcuts or out-of-order adjusting will usually ruin the box.


Last edited by KTPhil on Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

With a buddy inside the car and you under the car, have your buddy rock the steering wheel back and fort quickly, with in the "play" field. Put your finger on each connection.
    Steering shaft to coupler
    Coupler to rubber donut
    Doughnut to female coupler
    Female coupler to steering box shaft
    Steering box to beam
    Pitman Arm to steering box
    Each of the 4 tie rod ends to the spindles and pitman arm

Understand it is not just one item, it could be several of those places.

10% here, 10% there, 10% over right here etc and you end up with what feels like 4" of play.

If you purchased a PRObuilt beam, the long tie rod assembly is left loose for ease of installation, those two tie rod ends would need to be tightened fully.

You should have roughly 12mm of the adjustment screw sticking out of the steering box.

I do not know if the borgeson joint has any bearing or not, but I have not had to trouble shoot one with that joint in place.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

This summer I dialed out play in a TRW repro box. My system was tight and centred otherwise, the box had a few thousand miles on it. My slack was around 2 inches. Also, I filled the box with grease, couldn't find John Deere corn head grease, used Canadian Tire thick agricultural grease that said "met John Deere specifications."

The key for me (after reading many box adj posts on the Samba and eventually using the Bentley procedure) was making the tool for the big socket on the bottom (worm spindle axial play), and making a bicycle wrench for the 41 mm lock ring that sits around that socket.

Socket tool was a short 15/16" bolt and a nut, which won't quite line up shoulders unless you remove a little thickness from the nut top. Shortest 11/16 wrench size bolt at Home Depot. It will help to solder, glue, or braze the bolt and nut together so the nut won't un-tighten when turned CCW. Too long a bolt will be impossible to maneuver into the hole because of the body bulkhead being in the way. Cut off excess bolt to make a plug. Turn it with a 24mm wrench.

A 1-5/8" wrench is 41.27 mm, which is slightly too sloppy a fit. If transferring to a piece of plate to make the bicycle wrench, cut the hole a little small to eliminate the .27 you don't need, or even smaller, then file for perfect fit.

I just had my wheels straight ahead, but off the ground. The Bentley manual (61-65) says you can do them straight.

Key was to loosen the top worm and roller screw first, then loosen and adjust the 24mm socket back to just touch (kind of like setting valves), lock the ring, then go back up top and adjust the worm and roller screw to just touch and a hair more.

I'm back to spec wheel play, my steering self-centres, effort is easy and not binding.

I'm not an expert, actually this is my first time, but the Bentley way worked.


Last edited by pbenn on Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:34 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

Actually the first thing you check is how much force is required to turn the shaft and a good rule of thumb is you should be able to turn it by hand. It's about 5 inch pounds if you have the proper torque wrench.. Every one I've seen comes too tight from the factory. Maybe the theory is it will loosen up after you drive it awhile who knows ?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

My new TRW came in pretty tight. It's loosened up a bit. I wonder if it will continue down that path. I've been told if they are too tight and you turn them you will damage the worm.

It seems the best way to go forward is to save your original box and send it in for a rebuild by a pro.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

kawfee wrote:
My new TRW came in pretty tight. It's loosened up a bit. I wonder if it will continue down that path. I've been told if they are too tight and you turn them you will damage the worm.

It seems the best way to go forward is to save your original box and send it in for a rebuild by a pro.


Yes there is a difference between people that remove and replace and someone who can break it all down, take proper measurements using correct tooling and fixtures and has the ability to source or even manufacture parts as needed.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

Who rebuilds steering boxes? Who can we send em to?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

turbotype1 wrote:
Who rebuilds steering boxes? Who can we send em to?



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

As a box wears out (either from age or from overnighted adjustment nuts), what "wears," the bearings or the "gears" themselves? The kit will fix the former, but not the latter.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

The person who sells the kits also rebuilds them.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
As a box wears out (either from age or from overnighted adjustment nuts), what "wears," the bearings or the "gears" themselves? The kit will fix the former, but not the latter.


Which is why it's more than just slapping in new seals and bearings. Everything has a tolerance. If you read fully the entire thread on rebuilding and the autopsies performed on brand new boxes you'll see it explained in detail. Some boxes can get away with just that kit. Sorry to get off topic, to summarize see how hard it is to turn by hand and if it passes find center and set it up per the first post described. Hope this helps.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

[quote="KTPhil"]Does the input shaft have a scribe mark or ring like in this photo?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


No mark on the arm.

My weekend got away from me and I did not have a chance to pull the pitman arm. I will do that and check the true center and report back.

I will also check how much force is required to turn the input shaft while I am in there.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Steering issues. Can't get the steering box set up correctly Reply with quote

With the pitman arm off it was just under 1.5 turns each direction. I marked the input shaft accordingly. This is exactly where the front end was set the entire time. I was really wanting this to be the problem.

Force is around 8 to 10 inch pounds. Honesty not really using accurate measurements at that low of a setting on my torque wrench.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
This is the stick out of the adjustment screw when fully dialed in.

With a helping hand at the wheel and the pitman arm off I am confident in saying the play is in the steering box. Everything else is nice and tight.

Is this the point when I should guess the steering box was faulty? All thoughts welcome.

Patrick
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