Do I use the 40 Webers I have or get 36mm Dells for my 1776?

[NAES]

Hey everyone. This is a multi part question here so I'll try to keep things organized.

I have a 1776 from a budget builder who says it has a "performance cam" in it but doesn't remember what he put in there. Everything else appears stock. Currently I have 40 Webers on it and have gone through all kinds of hell trying to tune it with mediocre results. After finding a lengthy thread with John @ Aircooled.net I see that I've been chasing my tail. So now I feel a little more informed and am ready to have another go at this thing with the help of A/F readings.

So my first question is, do I keep these 40s and drop down the venturis to 28's and go from there or do I get the 36 Dells and sell the 40's?

Next is the distributor. Currently I'm running a Bosch 009. I have a dual point Mallory sitting in a box that I could use. I can also grab a SVDA if I need to.

Next is this mystery cam. If I put a dial indicator on the pushrod and spin the engine, will this be enough to help determine what cam is in this thing? If not, what else do I need to measure it without splitting the case?

I'll be pulling the engine soon for an oil pump upgrade and full flowing (without splitting the case) along with getting an O2 bung welded in there and various other preventative maintenance.

I want to run the engine on a stand and get it dialed before reinstalling it and hopefully having a better time of things. As of now, I simply hate driving my bus because it is so poorly tuned.

Recap
1776
40 Webers (do I keep or swap to 36 Dells?)
"Performance cam"
Stock looking heads
Doghouse
Will upgrade oil pump and full flow
Stock solid shaft rockers.

3.88:1 R&P trans with sedan 4th
195/55/15 rear tires.
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Barndoor Mafia
Box On Wheels
SBS #00

[stealth67vw]

36 Dells flow almost the same amount of air as the 40 IDF Webers. I think if you can't figure out your Webers, the Dells will work in their place despite the throat decrease. My buddy ran 36 Dells on a 2180 with good results.
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John Bates
JB Machining Services
1967 street Bug 2276 w/ 48 IDAs, 2020lbs with driver
7.76 @ 89.55mph 1/8 mile
12.34 and 108.10 mph 1/4 mile

[jpaull]

Ive dialed in 40idfs even on stock 1600s with good results. If you have poor performance its not the size of the carb that is the issue.
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[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg

Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth.

[Dale M.]

Have you read through this thread....

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=572107

Tuning guru who taught me what I know (according to some-not much)... It's like tuning 4 separate Briggs & Stratton motors on common crankshaft....

Dale
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"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[samotorsport]

You can stick to 40 s without a problem. what is your actual problem , what does the engine do ? I dialed mine with a broadband afr gauge
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1962 Split Panelvan Camper
1967 Herbie the love Bug
1970 Karmann Ghia 14

[vwracerdave]

When you pull the oil pump there may be numbers stamped on the end of the cam top identify it.

I'd keep the Webers. You don't know what your getting with another set of used carbs.

You will get better MPG if you use the SVDA.
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1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK

[sled]

well opinions are like assholes and I have one of those, so here's mine.

I have a 1776 with stock heads and a 110 cam (yours is probably a 100 or 110 considering thats what most budget builders throw in small engines) and dual 40 webers in one of my fully loaded camper buses - 65 dormobile. It runs like a sewing machine and pulls hills with ease.

yes, drop down to 28 venturis.

start with 50 idles, 125 mains, 200 airs and F7 emulsion tubes (I'll get flamed for that one).

the carb size is not the problem, it is most likely some other part of your system. What venturis are you currently running? have you made SURE you do not have any intake or exhaust leaks anywhere?

ditch that 009 quick and get a nice or rebuilt Bosch 019. A bus with a small engine does not need a SVDA to try 'lean cruise'.
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drive your split.

[NAES]

I've read the how-to link and followed it multiple times with meager results.

Symptoms are reasonably good idle quality with very occasional popping.
Starting off in first is extremely sluggish like the engine is trying to clear itself out. It wakes up as RPMs increase.
Shifting into 2nd at a "regular" shift point the engine falls on its face. Revving up (slightly uncomfortably) high in 1st and shifting to 2nd gives better results but it looks/sounds like I'm trying to race at every stoplight.
Cruises on flat ground 70ish but any incline and I'm flooring it and losing momentum until a fownshift is needed. I can keep it in 3rd going uphill and rarely have to drop to 2nd.
Coming to a stop from freeway speeds the engine runs pretty well at ifle unless its been a 30min or more drive. Then she wants to die and I'm tap dancing on the pedals to keep it running.
My last drive to Big Wednesday the oil pressure light flickered at idle a few times. I had to keep the RPMS up to prevent this. Oil level was fine. Mobil 1 20/50 synthetic.
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Barndoor Mafia
Box On Wheels
SBS #00

[67rustavenger]

Curious, did you disassemble these carbs and clean them?

This sounds like a problem I had. My engine would idle great and I could drive it on the idle jets. But anything in between idle and WOT was just mushy and lifeless. Once the rpm's were up and I was on the mains and AC jets it would scream from light to light. Then when I came to a stop I had to do the pedal dance too. It just wanted to die.

The mistake I made was that when reassembling the carbs. I installed the Aux. vents upside down. Doing this causes fuel to dump out the Aux. vents rather than being atomized for a clean burn. Once modok pointed this error out. I was on my way to tune bliss.

Check it out and report back what you find. Maybe point your camera down the carb throat and snap a couple of pics and post them. We can tell you if they are correct.

Good Luck.
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[Dale M.]

Generally popping out carbs coming off idle are indicator you have lean condition...

Also general rule with webers is idle mixture screws are less then one turn out you idle jets are to rich, if idle mixture screws are more then 1- 1/2 turn out you are to lean...

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[modok]

36mm dellortos are always a good match for stock size heads, and IMO quite a lot better manners than the common 40idfs.
The 40idfs should be able to work well also, maybe even a little better at WOT.

You can find out all you need to know about the cam if you have a degree pulley and degree the cam, and that could be done in car tho you might need an additional eyeball or two and a third arm, BUT, It's a shame you can't tell the compression ratio.
I don't suspect one way or the other, but if it's got a wild cam and over-ported heads and a very LOW compression ratio.... you might be chasing your tail forever trying to tune it. Hope not.

[Alstrup]

[NAES]

Wow thank you everyone for the awesome info!

I pulled the trigger on the wideband so that'll be here by the time I am ready to pull the engine and get started on things. I'll get the compression test done and carb specs when I get into it and hopefully I can get the cam specs as well.

More than one person has told me to go with the 36 Dells so I'm going to go check out a set this week. If they're nice I'll grab 'em, if they're crusty I'll stick with what I have.

Since I'm basically starting from scratch, should I run that dual point Mallory I have or go find a SVDA?

Thanks everyone. I'm getting kinda stoked to dial this engine in! NAES
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Barndoor Mafia
Box On Wheels
SBS #00

[Alstrup]

[Dale M.]

As Alstrup suggests, maybe "black box" ignition by CBP or Maybe crank fire like megaJolt, it's probably better than any distributor out there...

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[NAES]

Ok. I grabbed those 36 dells, disassembled them, tumbled all the brass the US cleaned it. Looks like all the brass is in great shape. No evidence of overtightening or crossthreading. Throttle shafts aren't bent. The bodies just need a good scrubbing. I forgot to jot down what size jets I have but I'll post that soon too. I'll put the engine next week and pull the oil pump to see what I'm working with in there. Then if I have time I'll full flow it at the same time, otherwise I'll do it next weekend.
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Barndoor Mafia
Box On Wheels
SBS #00

[NAES]

So like most of my best intended plans, time got away from me!

The 36s got a rebuild using CB kits. Put them on today and got them running. Clearly I'm no dual carb pro but they are way better than the 40s I was running. I still have a bogging/flat spot at low rpms which I will blame on the 009 unless someone says otherwise. They feel pretty close but there's a bit more tuning to be done for sure. And that damned whistle that I completely forgot existed until today!

So here are the specs as of today.
1776 of unknown internals with a "performance" cam.
36 bodies
30mm venturis
Emulsion tubes are stamped 9164.2 The Superformance book doesn't seem to be helpful here unless I missed something.
122 mains
60 idles
50 accelerator pump jets
Floats 12.5mm open and 5mm closed
Bosch 009 timed 30* @3000rpm
Valves at .006
Bosch super plugs at 0.30

Compression
#1 140
#2 140
#3 135
#4 115 (goddammit! Lol)

A1 exhaust

I have the idle set to around 950 which holds for about 1 minute before the rpms drop and the engine will die unless I blip the throttle. I went up and down on idle speed with no change. Almost like the bowls are running dry or something. Any thoughts on this one? (Bowls hold fuel so the Dell drip is not the culprit). Fuel pressure is 3.5lbs measured on a gauge.

Thanks all, NAES
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Barndoor Mafia
Box On Wheels
SBS #00

[modok]

it's too lean. You gotta adjust the idle mixture screws, probably to give it more fuel at idle. OR there is a vac leak of some kind.

[NAES]

Cool man, thanks. That's easy enough to check for.
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Barndoor Mafia
Box On Wheels
SBS #00