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PierreDeKat Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005 Posts: 694 Location: Puerto Vallarta
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:23 am Post subject: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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Hi Guys,
I replaced the wheel cylinders, master cylinder, and brake shoes on my 68 Beetle three years ago.
This car is a daily driver and has not sat parked for more than two to three days in all that time.
My car started pulling to the right when I brake, and I inspected the brakes all the way around the other day to see what was going on.
Well, apparently the front-left wheel cylinder has seized-up, along with the right-rear wheel cylinder.
And this isn't the first time my wheel cylinders have seized-up.
They were seized-up when I bought the car ten years ago, and they were starting to seize-up three years ago when I replaced the wheel cylinders the last time.
So what causes these wheel cylinders to do this?
I'm using OEM wheel cylinders and DOT3 brake fluid with a thorough bleed ever time.
My theory is that this is design related.
The brakes are designed to allow a human leg to stop a 1,850 pound car, but the trade-off is that the brake shoes move only a few thousandths of an inch at a time.
And it's that lack of substantial movement that contributes to the cylinders seizing-up over time.
But maybe there's something I'm missing? Or am I doing something wrong? _________________ 68 Beetle
And keeping my eye out for a Kombi or a Microbus! |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:45 am Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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Yep great question
Last edited by Zundfolge1432 on Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mudpump Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2007 Posts: 750
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:17 am Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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I don't think it's design related. Getting only 3 years out of OEM wheel cylinders seems very unusual. I've never got that little service out of a wheel cylinder. What brand do you consider OEM? Are you lubricating the piston when you install it? |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:24 am Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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[quote="Mudpump"]I don't think it's design related. Getting only 3 years out of OEM wheel cylinders seems very unusual. I've never got that little service out of a wheel cylinder. What brand do you consider OEM? Are you lubricating the piston when you install it?[/quote
Last edited by Zundfolge1432 on Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Q-Dog Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010 Posts: 8687 Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:28 am Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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The cylinders don't come greased. What are you using to grease them? Should be using Red Rubber Grease as it doesn't degrade rubber and doesn't react to brake fluid. _________________ Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5986 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:17 am Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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DOT3 and DOT4 brake fluid absorb water from the air. This can cause stuff to get rusty if the brake fluid is not changed regularly.
If you're using DOT3 or DOT4 you are supposed to replace all the brake fluid every 2 years. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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Old n' slow Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2012 Posts: 619 Location: Western Maryland
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:54 am Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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Just a thought but maybe it's your proximity to the Pacific Ocean..... Is your car exposed to salt water or salt spray somehow ? _________________ Currently own : 1969 Beetle w/ 1600cc, Single Port, Solex 30 PICT 2, Dist. 113 905 205 T, stock exhaust.
All my daily drivers gone but not forgotten;
1964(sunroof)1967 & (2)1968 Beetles , 1968 Squareback , 1963 (23 window )Deluxe Sunroof Bus , 1969 Westphalia camper, 1974 Dasher , 1985 Vanagon , (2) 1981 Rabbit Diesels & a 1991 Jetta Diesel . |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:54 am Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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over heatjng from a dragging brake can seize them up. this can be from too tight brake shoe clearence, internally swollen hose (they may look find on outside, but be horribly restricted inside, preventingthe fluid from flowing backwards once pedel is released) as mentioned brake compatible grease need be used upon assembly. the master could be adjusted wrong (push rod clearence) to allow full rectraction when pedel is released.
something is wrong, tossing new cylknders at the problem may not fix it long term. so go thru the above stuff. if hoses are very old, they are suspect. with car elevated, stomp and hold the pedel down hard, then release the brake pedel and immediatly have help rotate the wheel, do this for each of the fojr wheels. if they drag immediatly after relase of pedel, then the hoses are highly suspect.
good luck, Now Stop It! _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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Blue69Baja Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2008 Posts: 1065 Location: Fair Oaks
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:34 am Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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I have fixed a couple of friends brakes because of this exact problem. The Cyl's were not very old but had seized.
The cars had never been driven in rain or coastal salty air.
The pistons and cyl were corroded because of dissimilar metals...That was the consensus from some of my mech buds, including myself.
As I replaced the cylinders the new cylinders had brake assembly grease already installed. The ones I removed showed no application of assembly grease!
Inspect new cylinders for brake assembly grease! _________________ 69 Baja with a 1914...
72 Super 100% orig...W/ factory air... 56,000mi
Even the spare is original.. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:00 am Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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I dont thinkmit is do to dissimular metals, both pistons and cylinder appear to be iron alloys. besides grease wont prevent this type of corrosion unless the grease totally electricaly isolated the two different metals.
lack of grease and the hydroscopic nature of brake fluid are probably the cause. some folks make the mistake of using brake fluid as an assembly lube for these parts, that will certainly cuase corrosion issues.
If you do a complete system rebuild replace all ruber parts, then a conversion to dot 5 silicone fluid makes good sense, kt is non hydroscopic, and wont harm paint. but before conversion al, the old rubber parts need be replaced with new.
good luck, stop sure! _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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vamram Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012 Posts: 7274 Location: NOVA
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:26 am Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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Are there any cons to switching to DOT5? Do all wheel cylindes, rubber lines and MC need to be replaced? _________________ Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!
'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!! |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5986 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:42 am Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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vamram wrote: |
Are there any cons to switching to DOT5? Do all wheel cylindes, rubber lines and MC need to be replaced? |
That's the main con, you have to replace everything rubber in the system.
Also for some reason no one can really explain, DOT5 seems to eat the brake light switches. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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sjbartnik wrote: |
vamram wrote: |
Are there any cons to switching to DOT5? Do all wheel cylindes, rubber lines and MC need to be replaced? |
That's the main con, you have to replace everything rubber in the system.
Also for some reason no one can really explain, DOT5 seems to eat the brake light switches. |
You only need replace the rubber parts, the cylinders are fine to reuse if cleaned and new rubber installed.
I have not had brake light switch problems since converting, over two decades of DOT 5 use on the Bug.
another pro conversion point is you no longer have to do regular flushing as the fluid is non hydroscopic. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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kangaboy Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2010 Posts: 1062 Location: St. Louis, Mo
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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Q-Dog wrote: |
The cylinders don't come greased. What are you using to grease them? Should be using Red Rubber Grease as it doesn't degrade rubber and doesn't react to brake fluid. |
Would you mind providing a link? I have never lubed up my wheel cylinders during rebuild, but wouldn't mind trying it for future rebuilds.
This???
https://www.amazon.com/Raybestos-BAF12-Brake-Asembly-Fluid/dp/B001ANJ2GE _________________ -74 Standard - "CaliBug" 2084T, MS3X w/FI and Crank Fire
-76 Westy - "Gandalf"
-18 GTI SE
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
that fucking thing looks like it drove through a J.C. Whitney catalogue and hit everything on the way out |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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kangaboy wrote: |
Q-Dog wrote: |
The cylinders don't come greased. What are you using to grease them? Should be using Red Rubber Grease as it doesn't degrade rubber and doesn't react to brake fluid. |
Would you mind providing a link? I have never lubed up my wheel cylinders during rebuild, but wouldn't mind trying it for future rebuilds.
This???
https://www.amazon.com/Raybestos-BAF12-Brake-Asembly-Fluid/dip/B001ANJ2GE |
No, you want a paste, what you linked is a liquid. the old VW service manuals called out to use Genuine VW Brake Paste, but anybrand that is compatible with with the internal brake hydroulics will be fine. beware of grease that is sold as brake grease that is not compatible with the internal wetted parts. this type is simply a high temp grease used on non wetted parts such as caliper pins or as an anti squeak material for disc pads.
So make sure the lable states it is for use on tne wetted brake parts or pistons and rubber boots....
https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-24115-Caliper-Hi-Temp-Silicone/product-reviews/B000HBGKH4
the above link is what I use. back of bottle states it is ok to applynto pistons and rubber sleeves.
good luck, Stop Sure! _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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Q-Dog Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010 Posts: 8687 Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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Do an internet search for "red rubber grease" and you will find several brands. And as mentioned, "brake grease" from your flaps will work as long as it says it is compatible with rubber and silicone ... some aren't. _________________ Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
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BIGMIKEY Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2007 Posts: 1102 Location: North East Pennsylvania
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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I found this sheet in my new BRAX master cylinder. It states a "correct smearing" of this grease on the internal bits of the wheel cylinder and seals. Never heard of such a thing in 47 years of VW ownwership. Also never had a wheel cylinder seize like that. Is it a recent development from inferior materials?
Do I need to disassemble my new M/C and grease it up? I am not arguing here just amazed that I never knew.
"correct smearing" gotta love that....
Mike T
_________________ BIGMIKEY
Deserter Series 1 project.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=787047&highlight=
1973 Beetle Driver, Marina Blue. |
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Mudpump Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2007 Posts: 750
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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I've always just smeared a thin film of anti-seize around the piston. Probably not optimal but I've never had an issue using it. |
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PierreDeKat Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005 Posts: 694 Location: Puerto Vallarta
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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Hi guys, thanks for all the great replies.
The thing that's really jumping out at me is the grease deal.
So if I put in a brand new wheel cylinder, it is not pre-greased?
And I need to take it apart, grease it and then reassemble it?
Is that correct? _________________ 68 Beetle
And keeping my eye out for a Kombi or a Microbus!
Last edited by PierreDeKat on Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: What Causes Brake Cylinders to Seize Up Over Time? |
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BIGMIKEY wrote: |
I found this sheet in my new BRAX master cylinder. It states a "correct smearing" of this grease on the internal bits of the wheel cylinder and seals. Never heard of such a thing in 47 years of VW ownwership. Also never had a wheel cylinder seize like that. Is it a recent development from inferior materials?
Do I need to disassemble my new M/C and grease it up? I am not arguing here just amazed that I never knew.
"correct smearing" gotta love that....
Mike T
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My Bentely Official VW Service Manual and several other VW service book I have state to use the brake grease or brake paste. Been using it for 40 years on my cars. same with other makes I have worked on.
one poster mentioned antisieze use, I would be hesitent to use the same antiseize that I use for my exhaust studs and such for my brakes as the container does not say it is brake system compatible. Some greases and oils will destroy the rubber brake parts, and many repair manuals state that. it could be some antisieze greases are safe, but Id not risk it unless it states on the package that it is specifically ok.
also the brake grease is handy for lubing the threads on the flare pipe threads on the cylinders and bleeder screws, helps prevent them rusting and getting stuck.
good luck _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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