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1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain!
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furgo
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

I happened to go to a show today and picked up a couple of cheap accordion tubes in good condition to replace my aftermarket aluminum/paper heating tubes. I then thought I'd double-check this great thread to see how to restore them Smile.

For some reason, I also thought I needed a short and a long piece, but I'm not so sure anymore.

In any case, I've got some notes and some questions.

The whole assembly (i.e. one tube) consists of two part numbers: one for the tube itself and one for the smaller cap that screws into it. That confused me a bit initially.

Long accordion tube:
113 255 357 A (tube)
113 255 358 B (cap)

Short accordion tube:
113 255 357 C (tube)
113 255 358 D (cap)

Under water, I removed the metal collars with the asbestos cuffs, and then also the loose rings underneath. One of the rings just broke upon unscrewing the cap. They are paper-like just as the cuffs. I'm not expert on this, but if it's consensus that the cuffs are asbestos, the rings certainly look to be from the same material. I can post some pictures with better light tomorrow.

The disassembly of the short accordion tube was not easy: someone had glued the cap to the thread, so I had to carefully pry off the walls of each part. It took a while, but in the end it came off undamaged.

What did not come undamaged was the wadding: it was covered in a thick layer of dust/mud, so I tried to carefully hand-wash it. One of them survived (surprisingly the dirtiest one), but the other came apart in the middle. Nevertheless, I think I should still be able to use it once it's dry.

Now for the questions:

• With the silicone cuffs upgrade, the metal collar which the asbestos cuffs were wrapped around is no longer needed, correct?
• Were the two tubes you had a good fit, or did you end up having to cut off the long one, as you wondered at some point in the thread?
• As I said, I think I can still reuse the insulation, but has someone found a modern replacement?

Thanks!

Update: I just noticed that the Late Bay microfiches list two different parts than the ones discussed on this thread, but I'm not sure if the lengths match the (Beetle?) 113 255 35.. parts we've been talking about so far.

211 255 387 (left)
211 255 388 (right)

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Hoody
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

No you don't need to cut the cuffs. Go on eBay and search Mighty Matt insulation.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

Hoody wrote:
No you don't need to cut the cuffs.


I did not mean the cuffs, but the tubes. There was some mention on the thread that the length of the (Beetle?) parts might not fit a Type 4, so I was trying to get some clarity on that.

Hoody wrote:
Go on eBay and search Mighty Matt insulation.


Perfect, thanks!

I've also found this on eche_bus' heater accordion tubes overhaul post. There are also some other pictures here.

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Last edited by furgo on Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:00 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

supposedly they are different lengths but the two I am using in my 1977 are the same length and they fit and work fine.

I used all the original parts except the insulation. For that I used the same type synthetic jute that goes under carpet in cars. Originally I tried some tubes that are sold aftermarket for the purpose but they melted. I thought about using fiberglass but didn't want to breathe the fibers. Anything plastic will melt from the heat. This is all that was left of the aftermarket inner tube,

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
supposedly they are different lengths but the two I am using in my 1977 are the same length and they fit and work fine.


Ah, thanks. I guess I'll just have to measure and try.

Thinking about it, it might have to do with the exhaust/heat exchanger setup. On my '79 Federal I've got two similar-looking heat exchangers, like the one on top on the microfiche picture I posted. So probably I'll need same lengths too. I'll report back.

SGKent wrote:
I used all the original parts except the insulation. For that I used the same type synthetic jute that goes under carpet in cars.


Nice tip for another insulation option. I certainly don't want my heater tubes to end up looking like the one on the picture!

furgo wrote:

• With the silicone cuffs upgrade, the metal collar which the asbestos cuffs were wrapped around is no longer needed, correct?


Finally, while I'm not completely certain, after doing some research I think I can answer my own question there: the silicone sleeves replace the whole metal collar + asbestos cuff sleeve assembly. Update: perhaps not so quick:

kreemoweet wrote:
The gray silicone cuffs currently being widely sold are very short , and if not used with the original metal sleeves (or similar), will allow a direct path between the hot airstream and the outer plastic shell, possibly resulting in damage.


and

eche_bus wrote:
On the ends, I used the only available silicone cuffs. I discovered later that they are about 1/2" too short to completely enclose the part of the hot flapper valve that sits inside them and became concerned about this non-insulated gap. A search is ongoing for the longer cuffs used on aircooled Vanagons as shown on Ratwell's website.


So it seems the currently available grey cuffs (111 819 945) are shorter than the red OG Vanagon ones (251 255 393 D, NLA):

111 819 945:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


251 255 393 D:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I guess an equivalent to the asbestos ring is still needed with the silicone sleeves? Or do they push on the metal ring of the cage to insulate the ends from the plastic tube?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

Only one review but might be worth a try?
https://www.vwheritage.com/211255387a-heater-tube-heat-exchanger-to-body-34x6x6cm-t2-bay-72-79
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:39 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

Now for the questions:

• With the silicone cuffs upgrade, the metal collar which the asbestos cuffs were wrapped around is no longer needed, correct?
• Were the two tubes you had a good fit, or did you end up having to cut off the long one, as you wondered at some point in the thread?

I'll answer from memory!
The silicone cuffs meant that I could discard the metal collar and the asbestos cuffs. Correct.

You can slightly alter the length of the whole accordion tube by screwing one end in or out. I have had mine off and on the bus many times and I always have to compress the accordion tube quite a bit to get it to fit. The main problem is that the silicone cuff can be squished out of place when you do this, so I just double check before I tighten the clamps.

Hope that helps!
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:02 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

Coating the original asbestos cuffs with high temperature silicone works well. The later silicone cuff are kind of soft whereas the OEM asbestos cuffs don't deform easily. One could coat the OEM cuffs with a high temperature epoxy as well. Asbestos is harmless if encapsulated.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:12 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
Only one review but might be worth a try?
https://www.vwheritage.com/211255387a-heater-tube-heat-exchanger-to-body-34x6x6cm-t2-bay-72-79


Nice find. I wouldn't mind buying aftermarket if the quality is good. It'd be good to know what's inside before buying, to avoid things like these, though:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


mcdonaldneal wrote:

The silicone cuffs meant that I could discard the metal collar and the asbestos cuffs. Correct.


Perfect, thanks for confirming!

I've added a note and pictures with some more findings on my previous post. According to some other Samba members, the aftermarket gray silicone sleeves are shorter than the red Vanagon ones, which might leave an air gap.

Would someone happen to have measurements of the red Vanagon sleeves (or the grey ones)?

mcdonaldneal wrote:
You can slightly alter the length of the whole accordion tube by screwing one end in or out. I have had mine off and on the bus many times and I always have to compress the accordion tube quite a bit to get it to fit. The main problem is that the silicone cuff can be squished out of place when you do this, so I just double check before I tighten the clamps.


Good to know, thank you. I'll go ahead and try.

Wildthings wrote:
Coating the original asbestos cuffs with high temperature silicone works well. The later silicone cuff are kind of soft whereas the OEM asbestos cuffs don't deform easily. One could coat the OEM cuffs with a high temperature epoxy as well. Asbestos is harmless if encapsulated.


Yeah, I'd read that comment earlier in the thread, thanks!. However, one of my rings is broken, so I might just replace them all by fabricating new ones from silicone sheet (I believe it was also you who suggested that).
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

For those of you who've replaced the insulation, what material is the best modern replacement for a battered original insulation mat? I bear in mind the Mighty Matt suggestion earlier on the thread, but I'm looking for something more generic that I can get here in Europe (i.e. that I don't have to get shipped from the US).

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The one at the bottom of the picture is effectively disintegrating and I'm looking to replace it altogether.

Regarding specs, I'm thinking:

• It should at least withstand 190 F. I'm taking this as some sort of guidance from the exhaust temperature measurements ratwell did back in the day
• It should probably not absorb moisture. I realize there is air flow when the bus is running, but I'm thinking of when it is in storage. The inside metal cage tubes in mine were a bit rusted, so moisture did get in there somehow. Mind you, the OG material looks to me like it would absorb moisture, so you never know...

Other than that, I have little clue on insulation materials and which ones are suitable for an automotive application such as this. Mineral wool? Foam glass? With reflective coating? No coating at all...?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

The original accordian tube wadding is almost identical to a lot of felt carpet padding I've seen. Any place that sells carpet remnants
should have that stuff at very affordable prices.

The gray rubber silicone sleeves I have, and which look to be the same as are currently being sold by most VW parts vendors, is far shorter
that the original metal sleeves or the rubber sleeves used on some later busses. It's a paltry 22.5 mm (7/8") beyond the lip, and leaves a
large gap that exposes part of the outer plastic shell to the hot air stream.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

Actually the accordion tubes needs to be able to withstand at least 400°F. It is much hotter there than you might think, the problem with the heater system is the poorly designed duct work further forward in the vehicle and the lack of an inline booster fan. The heater boxes themselves down right rock.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-temperature_insulation_wool
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

kreemoweet wrote:
The original accordian tube wadding is almost identical to a lot of felt carpet padding I've seen. Any place that sells carpet remnants should have that stuff at very affordable prices.


Thanks. I think you might be on to something. That stuff is used in Europe and called the equivalent of "recycled felt" or "insulation felt". I don't know the proper name used in the US or Canada.

As far as I can tell, it is/was generally used as a cheaper alternative to rock wool or glass wool for small heat insulation jobs at homes. I haven't quite found out its temperature resistance, although I've seen at least one reference mentioning wool felt starting to carbonize at 320 °C (ca. 600 F).

I could use that, but I'm not sure if it would be the same material as the original ones, with the same heat resistance. It might look the same, but I'm not sure if it is indeed the same thing or whether I'd be able to get the same thing at all (e.g. polyester fibers instead of natural wool).

So unless I find a ready-made equivalent to the Mighty Matt that is available in Europe, I might just get a sheet of glass wool or rock wool (or even the high-temp insulation wool Tcash was pointing to).

As per the silicone cuffs, thanks for confirming the length. Also, I've been looking for the red (longer) Vanagon ones, and they are as far a NLA part as they can go around here. So I'll either have to use the shorter silicon cuffs and fabricate/find an equivalent to the metal collars they are fitted to (mine were either missing or thoroughly rusted), or drop the original inner contents altogether and go for the silicone ducting + insulation approach.

For a possible metal collar replacement with some further modification needed, I found #113255165, but I'm not sure if it's got the right diameter (the originals were 57 mm wide)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In any case, one step at a time. Now the insulation first Smile

Wildthings wrote:
Actually the accordion tubes needs to be able to withstand at least 400°F. It is much hotter there than you might think, [...]


Interesting, I was going by those ratwell measurements, so I assumed the temperature would be less. Where did you get the 400 F figure from, is this something you also measured at some point?

As usual, thanks everyone for the suggestions and good info.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

furgo wrote:


Wildthings wrote:
Actually the accordion tubes needs to be able to withstand at least 400°F. It is much hotter there than you might think, [...]


Interesting, I was going by those ratwell measurements, so I assumed the temperature would be less. Where did you get the 400 F figure from, is this something you also measured at some point?

As usual, thanks everyone for the suggestions and good info.


I have gotten temperature readings in the range of 350°F using an IR gun to shoot the riser pipes to the flapper valves.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
I have gotten temperature readings in the range of 350°F using an IR gun to shoot the riser pipes to the flapper valves.


Perfect, thanks for the follow up. It's always good to have actual data.

Also, I've just found out what the proper name for the original insulation was: it's called recycled needle felt, made of polyester fibres.

I could not find any specs in terms of thermal conductivity and heat resistance to use as a reference, though.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

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I'm more than a year late to this particular party but does anyone know the OD of the red ducting we can use to replace the interior of the "accordion"? I imagine aircraftspruce.com must have something. But since my bus lives on the mean streets of NYC, it ain't so easy to pull the tubes, measure the inside, order the ducting, replace the tubes, wait a week or two while driving around, pull everything again, install and all that.

Will happily convert from metric to imperial measurements if need be!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

60mm ID, I doubt AC spruce sells it by OD.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
60mm ID, I doubt AC spruce sells it by OD.


You're right, AC Spruce sells it based on ID. Unfortunately, it's an ugly conversion: 60mm is 2.36 inches which is bigger than 2 1/4 but smaller than 2 1/2. So in this application is it better to get the smaller ducting but be able to wrap more insulation around it or get the larger ducting that will fill the accordion better but allow for less insulation?

Or will I wake up in the morning and ask myself why I bothered to ask the question?

Think
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Accordion tube refurb,now with added heater cable pain! Reply with quote

Because the gray cuffs are shorter than the metal ring+asbestos cuffs, couldn't one remove the asbestos and simply wrap the metal cuff with a thick high temp silicone mat and silicone it into place on the metal cuff?
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