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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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 Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Seat Belts & Rearward-Facing Seats |
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| Sjtw wrote: |
| NASkeet wrote: |
Seat Belts & Rearward-Facing Seats
I was interested to note in the most recent issue of Volkswagen Camper & Commercial magazine, the following article about the innovative provision of three-point, inertia-reel seat belts, which were retro-fitted to Steve Williams' 13-window, "split-screen", 1963 VW 1200 Type 2 Devon campervan, by Quickfit Safety Belt Services, who also advertise in the magazine, on Page 53.
Steve Williams, "Three-point seat belts - Safe travelling in a split!", Technical, Volkswagen Camper & Commercial, Issue 71, September 2013, Pages 72~73.
Making suitable seat-belt provision for all VW Transporter seats, which are occupied whilst travelling, is one of my major "hobby horses", so I was pleased to see the publication of such an article, in one of the mainstream VW Transporter magazines.
However, I was EXTREMELY CONCERNED that the REARWARD-FACING, two-position bench seat, illustrated on Page 72, appears to have NO provision for HEAD RESTRAINTS, to complement the retro-fitted seat belts. Even if seat belts were not fitted, head restraints should have been incorporated, if these seats were to be used whilst the vehicle is in motion.
If properly designed, REARWARD-FACING seats are inherently safer than forward-facing seats, but ONLY IFF the rearward-facing seats have ULTRA-HIGH BACKS (called "tombstone" seats in the USA) or PROPERLY-ADJUSTED HEAD RESTRAINTS; otherwise, even a moderately serious, low-speed frontal collision, could easily result in DEATH or SERIOUS INJURY (i.e. paraplegia or quadraplegia) from a broken neck.
Hence, I hope to somehow contact the author Steve Williams, or otherwise convey this information to him, so that he may take steps to retro-fit appropriate head restraints to his rearward facing seats and hence avoid placing his family or other passengers in EXTREME danger; young children being especially vulnerable to neck injuries! In the meantime, I shall alert Quickfit Safety Belt Services, in Stanmore, Middlesex, to this oversight! |
Thank you for your concern Nigel. I saw your letter in Camper and Commercial and appreciate you trying to contact me.
I just wanted to reassure you that the rear facing seats aren't used by my children when we travel. Generally they're occupied by a Colman Cooler (secured by the seatbelts).
On the few occasions they were used, the children were in their car seats which have their own head restraints built in.
Perhaps I should have added that to the article!
Thanks again.
All the best
Steve Williams |
On Tuesday, 8th October 2013, Steven J. T. Williams wrote:
« I saw your letter in Camper and Commercial and appreciate you trying to contact me. I just wanted to reassure you that the rear facing seats aren't used by my children when we travel. Generally they're occupied by a Colman Cooler (secured by the seatbelts). On the few occasions they were used, the children were in their car seats which have their own head restraints built in. Perhaps I should have added that to the article! »
I presume this is the edited letter to which you refer, which David Eccles suggested he publish in the magazine!?!
Nigel A. Skeet, "Safety versus originality", Camper Mail, Volkswagen Camper & Commercial, Issue 72, October 2013, Page 27.
I also sent a similar e-mail letter on Saturday, 24th August 2013, to Quickfit Safety Belt Services, Stanmore, Middlesex [email protected] , but I have yet to receive any reply!
My initial concern was for the safety of your family and other passengers, but I also feared, that other readers might subsequently copy your seat belt installation for rearward-facing seats, for use by adults and older children, being oblivious to the EXTREME danger of travelling in such a seat which lacks the necessary protection from neck injury, which is likely to be FATAL, in the event of a frontal collision, from which passengers wearing seat belts in forward-facing seats (with or without head restaints), could walk away relatively unscathed.
Sadly, David Eccles, the editor of Volkswagen Camper & Commercial, was a high-school teacher of english by profession and does not have the benefit of a scientific & technical education, otherwise he might have foreseen the dangers and warned you of the implications, before the final version of your article was published. There have been a few cases where featured vehicles have illegal and/or potentially hazardous modifications, upon which he has been unable or unwilling to comment.
I only hope that readers of your article, will also read my letter and refrain from putting their passengers in danger. It might be beneficial, if you were to send a letter to David Eccles, for publication in Camper Mail, clarifying your use and intended use of the rearward facing seats and seat belts. When writing magazine articles or posting information on Internet forums, we all need to consider, that what is obvious to us, might be far from obvious to others, so if there are potential hazards, they need to be stated unequivocally.
In my role as editor & technical editor of Transporter Talk (bi-monthly magazine of the Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club), I as a graduate physicist and engineer, have always been careful to draw authors' attention to ambiguities and to clarify intended meaning; sometimes appending Editor's Comments in coloured text, either as footnotes or within the main body of the text, if the author was unable to give adequate clarification, especially where issues of safety or legality are concerned.
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
http://www.vwt2oc.net |
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jereandjess
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Joined: January 09, 2005
Posts: 563
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Has anyone put these rear 3 point seat belts in the back of their bus?
It is from a UK company available in the US from busdepot.com.
http://www.busdepot.com/j10652
Looking for 3 point belts for my kids now that they are out of 5 point car seats and using booster seats that need 3 point belts.
Thanks!
_________________
~Jeremy (and Jessica)
77 Sage Green Westfalia 2.0 FI - since May 2004
78 Blue Landmark camper 2.0 FI - since April 1998
69 Beetle - In the family since new
86 Wolfsburg Vanagon Camper "Weekender" since July 25, 2015 |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| jereandjess wrote: |
Has anyone put these rear 3 point seat belts in the back of their bus?
It is from a UK company available in the US from busdepot.com.
http://www.busdepot.com/j10652
Looking for 3 point belts for my kids now that they are out of 5 point car seats and using booster seats that need 3 point belts.
Thanks! |
The following part-number reference, suggests that this Securon branded seat belt, comes via Just Kampers
Part Reference Number: J10652
Here are a few Securon website links to whet your appetite
http://www.securon.co.uk/
http://www.securon.co.uk/applications/app_list/ttoz/seat_belts_vw.htm
http://www.securon.co.uk/seat_belt_harness_road_vehicles.htm
http://www.securon.co.uk/seat_belts_harness_passenger.htm
http://www.securon.co.uk/other/seat_belts_minibuses.htm
http://www.securon.co.uk/other/seat_belts_motorhomes.htm
http://www.securon.co.uk/seatbelts_layouts.htm
http://www.securon.co.uk/seat_belt_harness_tech_specs.htm
http://www.securon.co.uk/seat_belt_harness_leafletlinks.htm#passenger
http://www.securon.co.uk/other/lapanddiagonal.htm
http://www.securon.co.uk/seat_belts_pictures.htm
http://www.securon.co.uk/other/military.htm
Securon All-Ages Height Adjuster
http://www.securon.co.uk/other/allage.htm
Centre-Seat, Lap & Diagonal Seat Belts
http://www.securon.co.uk/other/seat_belts_centre.htm
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
http://www.vwt2oc.net |
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force3g
Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2009
Posts: 195
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| manikmike wrote: |
Meanwhile...
Has anyone come up with a schematic for these?
I've someone willing to try to fab - but I can't even find time* to install the 20ft long tach wiring I've been staring at longingly, nevermind try to mock this up...
* I blame my toddler and 3rd grader's science projects; they're too young for psychological impact, right? |
It has been a while, has anyone been successful fabricating or finding a source for these brackets to use 3 point belts on the rear seat?
_________________
Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber bullet.
1970 Westy
2010 Jetta |
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Hoody
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| The only way you will find one is to have a friend in Sweden who is willing to search long and hard for one. My friend Topaz turned me on to David Loft who posted earlier in this thread. He was kind enough to sell me one as well as the unobtanium fiberglass cap for the top which he had reproduced. As far as the seat belt for it goes there is one major hurdle to overcome being that it won't work with a Westy well due to the fact that the retractable spool will interfere with the rear cushion. I have found what I believe is a simple solution using a slightly modified rear Vanagon seat belt set up. I think I got the last one that David had but he was seriously looking into having them re-popped by i believe the original producer of them. If someone wants detailed pics and measurements I would be happy to help out. To make these identical to the originals would be no small feat. They are one piece of thick steel doubled over and welded. But they could be individually cut and welded together. I will post my results in the spring when the upgrade is finished. |
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force3g
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Posts: 195
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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PM sent
_________________
Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber bullet.
1970 Westy
2010 Jetta |
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Hoody
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Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:34 am Post subject: Re: 1968~79 VW Type 2, seatbelts, head restraints & airb |
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Here's another picture I found sometime ago, of a rear seat belt which incorporates an air bag:
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
http://www.vwt2oc.net |
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Amskeptic
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
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| Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:53 am Post subject: Re: 1968~79 VW Type 2, seatbelts, head restraints & airb |
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| NASkeet wrote: |
Here's another picture I found sometime ago, of a rear seat belt which incorporates an air bag:
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Does the gas discharge throw shrapnel into your precious child's neck, a la Takata?
A VW bus is an amazingly safe place for your children in the rear seat to be restrained by a simple lap belt, as we have DISCOVERED with school buses.
Three-point belts run a risk of slicing your kid's jugular veins or carotid arteries.
Once you have side to rear passenger compartment intrusions in these cars, all bets are off.
Drive Paranoid,
Colin
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:15 am Post subject: Re: 1968~79 VW Type 2, seatbelts, head restraints & airb |
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| Amskeptic wrote: |
| NASkeet wrote: |
Here's another picture I found sometime ago, of a rear seat belt which incorporates an air bag:
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Does the gas discharge throw shrapnel into your precious child's neck, a la Takata?
A VW bus is an amazingly safe place for your children in the rear seat to be restrained by a simple lap belt, as we have DISCOVERED with school buses.
Three-point belts run a risk of slicing your kid's jugular veins or carotid arteries.
Once you have side to rear passenger compartment intrusions in these cars, all bets are off.
Drive Paranoid,
Colin |
Hello Colin.
I do not know who manufactures and supplies these air-bag rear seat belts to the Ford Motor Company.
http://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M01d619749ac8c85eaed989a855b9dfc7o0&pid=15.1
The picture was scanned from an article in the British national newspaper, the Daily Mail, published in June 2012.
Ray Massey (Transport Editor), “The blow-up seatbelt: Invention that promises greater crash protection in rear car seats”, Daily Mail, Friday, 22nd June 2012, Page 34.
« They will be available in Europe as an optional extra costing about £250 in the new Ford Mondeo, which will be on sale from the middle of “next year” for about £17,000 »
Seat belt air bags seem to be increasing in popularity, so it probably won't be long before they become mandetory in motor vehicles and aircraft.
http://www.amsafe.com/products-services/commercial...ag-system/
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=seat+belt+air+...;FORM=IGRE
As you have already deduced, correctly positioning the diagonal belt, is important for the safety of all passengers, which is why I favour the design of the Kangol Generation seat belt, whose diagonal-belt position is adjustable.
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
http://www.vwt2oc.net |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:49 am Post subject: Re: 1968~79 VW Type 2, seatbelts, head restraints & airbags |
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I recently found on E-bay, an advertisement for NOS Kangol Generation seat belts
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
http://www.vwt2oc.net |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:15 am Post subject: Re: 1968~79 VW Type 2, seatbelts, head restraints & airbags |
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I recently found on E-bay, an advertisement for an NOS Securon "All Ages" seat belt.
In common with the Kangol "Generation" rear seat belts, these Securon "All Ages" rear seat belts have an adjustable diagonal strap for optimum comfort and safety of adults and children of short stature.
I'm not sure whether this is a static seat belt or an automatic inertia-reel seat belt!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROVER-P6-TRIUMPH-DOLOMIT...SwawpXrhFt
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
http://www.vwt2oc.net
Last edited by NASkeet on Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:38 am Post subject: Re: 1968~79 VW Type 2, seatbelts, head restraints & airbags |
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Here are some more pictures of the Kangol "Generation" rear seat belt.
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
http://www.vwt2oc.net |
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lintbrush
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Joined: October 10, 2013
Posts: 269
Location: Campbell, California
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 2958
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:22 am Post subject: Re: 1968~79 VW Type 2, seatbelts, head restraints & airbags |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
| I don't get the reason for the extra L bracket on there? |
Having the additional L-shaped bracket, probably minimises the likelihood of the diagonal strap becoming twisted, but it does make the installation more complicated and introduces the hazard of scraping off one's skin on the exposed bolt threads and L-shaped bracket corners.
It would be nice to see some pictures of the rest of the installation, showing the disposition of the lap & diagonal straps in place, when people of different statures are sitting on the bench seat, with their seat belts fitted.
What rear seat belt installation if any, do you have on the other side of the campervan?
I originated this topic thread, in an attempt to create a single comprehensive resource, examining all types of safety restraint, for use in 1968~79 VW Type 2s. Too much information is fragmented, between a plethora of topic threads! 
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
http://www.vwt2oc.net |
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tommu
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2011
Posts: 618
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| force3g wrote: |
| manikmike wrote: |
Meanwhile...
Has anyone come up with a schematic for these?
I've someone willing to try to fab - but I can't even find time* to install the 20ft long tach wiring I've been staring at longingly, nevermind try to mock this up...
* I blame my toddler and 3rd grader's science projects; they're too young for psychological impact, right? |
It has been a while, has anyone been successful fabricating or finding a source for these brackets to use 3 point belts on the rear seat? |
Curious to know if anyone has made any progress with this. I'm interested. |
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khh48
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Joined: July 10, 2005
Posts: 45
Location: Verdal Norway
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webwalker 
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2006
Posts: 2803
Location: Mount Laurel, NJ
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: 1968~79 VW Type 2, seatbelts, head restraints & airbags |
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Bazinga! Exactly what I've been looking for 6 years running. I'll need to fit out one RH and two LH units so all of the outboard rear seats are 3 point. (Check your interior body: there is a standard seat captive bolt welded in for the LH middle seat passenger!)
More info as I find it. Yes, the brackets are $131 USD, but seem worth it to me.
M
_________________
"Consistent maintenance with quality products is the cheapest warranty you'll ever need."
1977 CE1 Transporter Deluxe, Subaru EJ22, Skills Cooling, Steedle HD 091 w/ GuardT .82 4th
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davidoft
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Joined: April 19, 2012
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1968~79 VW Type 2, seatbelts, head restraints & airbags |
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| webwalker wrote: |
Bazinga! Exactly what I've been looking for 6 years running. I'll need to fit out one RH and two LH units so all of the outboard rear seats are 3 point. (Check your interior body: there is a standard seat captive bolt welded in for the LH middle seat passenger!)
More info as I find it. Yes, the brackets are $131 USD, but seem worth it to me.
M |
I supply these to heritage, my brother lives in New Jersey if you need some |
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TO Rooster
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2019
Posts: 3
Location: ON
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: 1968~79 VW Type 2, seatbelts, head restraints & airbags |
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This is directed at Nigel, if he is still following this thread...
I have installed the davidoft brackets, and have been toying with the cabinet side (LHD bus) shoulder belt bracket mount.
I am posting these pictures of the mock-up for feedback. The issue, as I see it, from my non-engineering, non-scientific experience, is that the top mounting point of the shoulder belt loop is too far to the side of the shoulder. If I am seated in that position, then the belt wants to slip off my shoulder. Using the child booster seat with the shoulder belt loop (as shown in the pictures), the seat belt will be properly guided across my child's torso. However, as that shoulder belt leaves the booster seat towards the top loop it's angle is clearly not what it should be. It is too far to the side.
When I pulled on the belt straight forward it seemed to restrain without pulling the seat sideways. Obviously, that's not an accurate real world test.
So the life and death question is: Will this be safe in a hard stop? or in a collision?
Maybe some of you with a more engineering or science background can weigh in too. Thanks in advance.
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