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MontrealAircooledNut
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

Hello all you learned people. Yesterday had some major issues with my 1974 412 wagon, manual transmission. On my way back home from a Volksfest I attended, I noticed I was having problems shifting gears. At first, it felt like pressing the clutch pedal was not quite doing it, then more and more, there was less and less resistance in the clutch pedal, to a point I could not shift anymore. I was able to make it home , by never stopping and even passing a red light. The last 150 feet, I was in neutral and parked in front of my home. Had to push the car to park it properly. Now when all of this was happening, I thought, the clutch slave just died on me. But when I got out of the car, I noticed a trail of fluid that was left by the car on the pavement. Today I crawled under the rear of the car to try to figure out what the hell went wrong. All I saw was that the bottom of the transmission casing was wet. Could it be the clutch slave and/or a hose? I tried to check out by popping the engine compartment lid out but couldn't see a thing. Do I have to remove a wheel to be able to troubleshoot that? Any thoughts or ideas will be immensely appreciated
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dawie
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

Once had the same thing. Turned out to be the slave cylinder's seal, which had collapsed from old age.

I actually removed the engine, as i suspected the clutch fork. However this turned out to be in perfect shape.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

First....smell the oil that the transmission was wet with. Compare to your brake fluid.

Yes.....it is most probably the seal in the slave cylinder and usually at this age the outer boot has been long gone for a while....allowing clutch lining dust in to finish off the seal.

That being said it could also be the flexible hose that connects the hard line coming through the tunnel to the bracket on the tail cone of the transmission. The hard line has a female connector...IIRC.....which connects to the tailcone bracket with a brake line clip.....and the hose screws into the this fitting ....and then leads to the clutch slave cylinder.

By this time in years....the hose should have failed and if not is well on its way. It should be replaced as well.
The access to this slave is completely underneath the car. You can lift the car up on stands and with the left wheel removed you can see the slave cylinder. You may need to removed the flame trap from the gas heater if your heater has one.

The slave has two 8mm studs with 13mm nuts. It has a 7mm bleeder valve. Remove the hose first. Its going to take some prying to remove the slave.

This is going to be hard to get ANY parts for. The hose.....is not available. You could have one made at a hydraulic shop.....but its kind of a stupid design to have a 24" long high pressure hose. It is only a flexible joint to alllw slight movement of the transmission ....which should not EVER move more than 1/8".

What I did was get the same clutch hose from a Vanagon with hydraulic slave. Its only about 10" long and has the same fittings. Then simply get a piece of metal brake line with the correct male fittings on each end. Its all a,simple bolt up install.

Getting a slave cylinder may be unobtanium.

But......if you go to a CNC seal house...a place that cuts and/or molds seals from tube stock and ask for a U-cup style seal for a 44.5mm bore on a 44.3mm piston.....with an ID of 31.9mm and a width of 9.25mm.....or a width of 8mm and a flat backing ring of 1.0 to 1.25mm......and....it MUST be made of EPDM rubber.....and see if they can help you. You should also ask that the seal be of a durometer (hardness) of about 70 or less.

That last part may be a problem.

If they have to make one on a CNC lathe...they usually have to use harder rubber like 80 durometer. That means it does not stretch well. It will be VERY hard to install the seal without tearing it. It can be done.....but order about 3-5 seals. Trust me.....you will rip 2 before you get the hang of it.

Usually a house like this will charge about $125 for the CNC programming unless they have a design in stock that is close enough. Figure about $20 per seal.

The boot.....there are a handful of things we can make one from....but the material needs to be viton or high temp neoprene and there is very little room in there but we can help you,when you het to that point.

The other option that is VERY worth exploring is to find a large industrial brake house that rebuilds master cylinders and wheel cylinders and give them the measurements. They may have a seal cup in stock that fits something else or is close enough to use with a backing ring under the cup.

The other thing.....is that the master cylinder needs rebuilding as well. Its the same materials and same age. If you rebuild the slave and not the master cylinder.....you will be doing that mess and re-bleeding again in weeks or months.

If you find a master cylinder kit for a Vanagon with FAG cylinder....you can steal the seals.....BUT NOT THE PISTONS..... and rebuild your cylinder for cheap.

The type 4 with four speed is rare.....parts are even more rare. You need to take careful stock of the condition of the tranmission and shift linkage. Read my posts on this tranmission and its shift linkage etc. If you drive it and wait for things to happen.....there will be no replacement parts and no easy fixes.

Also.....DO NOT buy and install NOS master cylinders or slave cylinders. They are all junk if the pistons and seals have sat for years installed in the bores. If you can find rebuild kits...those should work fine.....though the seals will be a little stiff and difficult to install.

Ray
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MontrealAircooledNut
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

Thank you very much Ray for your help. In another thread, you said you were considering at some point using a slave cylinder for Jettas or one for Vanagons. What are your thoughts on this today? I will check where the leak is coming from then decide what I shall do. I wonder if the plungers on these might be too long. But they are cheaper. I am considering ordering a rebuilt unit from these guys.

http://www.pastparts.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=80_216&product_id=583


With shipping, it would amount to about 107$ canadian.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

MontrealAircooledNut wrote:
Thank you very much Ray for your help. In another thread, you said you were considering at some point using a slave cylinder for Jettas or one for Vanagons. What are your thoughts on this today? I will check where the leak is coming from then decide what I shall do. I wonder if the plungers on these might be too long. But they are cheaper. I am considering ordering a rebuilt unit from these guys.

http://www.pastparts.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=80_216&product_id=583


With shipping, it would amount to about 107$ canadian.


If they rebuild them....great!. But......from their ad.....they do not understand exactly what,they are dealing,with so be sure you SEE the cylinder.

There is no clutch slave that fits VW 412....1969-1975..... Wink

First....the 412 was only 1973 to 1975. Trivial yes.....but the slave cylinder from 1969 to about August of 1970 was totally different as was the bell housing it fits and the clutch fork.

The early slave was 22mm diameter. The late one was 44.5mm.

Yes.....the Jetta slave could work. I have not had time to play with one. You will need to make a plate to mount it with or modify the holes in the housing...plate is best...simple 1/4 ateel or aluminum.....and buy an adapter fitting to go from metric thread brake line to the quick connect on the Jetta cylinder and then do a little jiggering/shimming to get the stroke length correct.....but thats not bad. Ray
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MontrealAircooledNut
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

I am not sure I understand how this mounting plate would work or how I go about to make it. I think the challenge is to have the 2 studs that are on top of the transmission go thru the 2 small holes on the slave cylinder so I can bolt it on. I know it is silly but I don't picture how this plate would be made. I can picture filing the holes on the slave cylinder so the unit would just slide on the studs. Also, I don't understand your instruction about buying an adapter fitting to go from metric thread brake line to the quick connect on the Jetta cylinder. Can you point to me a part #, a picture? I think I'm really more of a visual person.
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MontrealAircooledNut
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

Is it that the mounting bracket would have 4 small holes? 2 to let the studs from the transmission go thru and 2 to screw the slave cylinder on? With a big one in the middle to let the plunger go inside the transmission? Is it possible that the stroke would not be long enough with the thickness of the plate? Is it possible to push down too much with the plunger and damage something?

On another note, I wrote to these rebuilders in England and pointed to them the anomaly of 1969-1975 412 Volkswagen. I'm waiting to hear from them. Asked them to send me a picture as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

MontrealAircooledNut wrote:
I am not sure I understand how this mounting plate would work or how I go about to make it. I think the challenge is to have the 2 studs that are on top of the transmission go thru the 2 small holes on the slave cylinder so I can bolt it on. I know it is silly but I don't picture how this plate would be made. I can picture filing the holes on the slave cylinder so the unit would just slide on the studs. Also, I don't understand your instruction about buying an adapter fitting to go from metric thread brake line to the quick connect on the Jetta cylinder. Can you point to me a part #, a picture? I think I'm really more of a visual person.


When you look at the slave cylinder when you take it out.....it will become clear. the hole in the bell housing for the slave...is roughly 2.25" in diameter. The Jetta slave is much smaller in diameter...like 25mm.

Even if the bolt pattern of the Jetta slave is exact to the bolt pattern of the 412 slave mounting....and its close....the Jetta slave is actually PPS plastic. When you put this slave cylinder over that massive open hole in the bell housing...there will be very little of the slave flange supported.....

So.....even if the Jetta slave bolt pattern is exactly the same...you should cut a small metal support plate with two bolt holes so it slips over the studs on the bell housing, covers the hole and has a hole in the center to allow the Jetta slave to protrude into the bell housing.

The other issue is stroke length.

On the 411 and 412....the clutch slave pushrod contacts the clutch fork somewhere in the center of its arc instead of down directly behind the TO bearing.

The closer the pushrod contact point is to the actual pivot point of the clutch fork....the less stroke length of throw it requires to move the fork full stroke.
I have no idea what the actual stroke length of the Jetta cylinder is or where on its fork it makes contact.

The stroke length is critical. If the slave cylinder does not stroke far enough...you grind gears and get no clutch release. Too long of a stroke....and it over extends the clutch fingers and bends them...and even worse than that...it grinds the clutch fork face against the fingers and WILL destroy it in short order....and those are unobtanium.

I have actually done that. What also causes that is the upper pivot point plate ...which is a weak spot....cracking with age. It allows the fork to move rearward toward the pressure plate....and the slave cylinder over extends....and it grinds the fork against the fingers. I destroyed one that way.

You should look in my transmission thread and see what really should be done to that fulcrum plate to prevent this issue that happens with age. The transmission will need to be out for that. Ray
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MontrealAircooledNut
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

Thank you again Ray for your quick reply. I understand now about the Jetta slave cylinder flange resting on almost nothing. I also understand that stoke is critical, as I thought it would be. I 'll have to measure total stroke minus thickness of mounting plate to have effective stroke. I don't want to under or overshoot it. I think also the mounting plate will prevent dirt of getting inside the transmission. As for the adapter for the connection of the hydraulic line on the slave cylinder, I do not know what it looks like
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

MontrealAircooledNut wrote:
Thank you again Ray for your quick reply. I understand now about the Jetta slave cylinder flange resting on almost nothing. I also understand that stoke is critical, as I thought it would be. I 'll have to measure total stroke minus thickness of mounting plate to have effective stroke. I don't want to under or overshoot it. I think also the mounting plate will prevent dirt of getting inside the transmission. As for the adapter for the connection of the hydraulic line on the slave cylinder, I do not know what it looks like


You are going to need to go to a parts tore and look at a Jetta or Golf Mk 6 slave in person....but they use a modern "push-lock" style connector with an o-ring inside just like most modern cars plumb their fuel system. They use a thick walled nylon pressure line as well. Some have metal sections.

Those are the kind where you squeeze the little clip to to allow the male line to pop out...and installing is just pushing it back in until it clicks.

The high pressure version is one of these two:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


These are the male ends of the line that plug into the slave cylinder.

You can probably go to the junk yard and buy the end with about 6" of line snipped off of the main line. You can buy new o-rings on line or at the dealer for only a couple of dollars. Snap that into the slave cylinder and then get a pressure union with inner ferrules to permanently connect that into the fluid line.

The nice thing about this is that now your cylinder will have a quick disconnect. Ray
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MontrealAircooledNut
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

Now I see clearly! But I wonder if the original fluid line has abt the same diameter the quick connect one has.
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MontrealAircooledNut
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

How abt the vanagon one? Would it be a better candidate? If it's not a quick connect, it would be more of a bolt on option. What are your two cents abt that one?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

MontrealAircooledNut wrote:
How abt the vanagon one? Would it be a better candidate? If it's not a quick connect, it would be more of a bolt on option. What are your two cents abt that one?


The vanagon one will have all of the same fitment and geometry problems...and is still a 35-40 year old limited use slave cylinder that may be discontinued ta any time.

If you are going to fabricate a bracket ...use something new.

The line diameter is about the same and its not an issue either way. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

Well I got some good news from England today. Customer service at http://www.pastparts.co.uk/ confirmed with me that it is the 44.5 mm clutch slave cylinder for the VW 412 they are selling. 52.5 pounds, shipping included to Canada, which equates to about 87 $ canadian. I'm ordering one. Will save me the trouble of making a Jetta slave cylinder conversion.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

MontrealAircooledNut wrote:
Well I got some good news from England today. Customer service at http://www.pastparts.co.uk/ confirmed with me that it is the 44.5 mm clutch slave cylinder for the VW 412 they are selling. 52.5 pounds, shipping included to Canada, which equates to about 87 $ canadian. I'm ordering one. Will save me the trouble of making a Jetta slave cylinder conversion.


Excellent!
If they are rebuilding them.....order a spare seal with it. You will need ine within about 50k miles. Its just in the design......if its the single seal model.

There was an OEM manufacturer that made rebuild kits that had a piston with a 2nd seal that faced outward. This seal was to keep dust out of the primary seal as well as to help keep the piston centered in the bore.

Yes.....I have looked at a variety of cylinders and methods including the Jetta cylinder. All of them will work just fine.....but all need some level of gemometry, bracketing or new connection technology.

Really the simplest and most original method would be to have rebuild kits available and simply rebuild the stock cylinder every 3-4 years. If that were done just as a matter of maintenance.....your original cylinder and piston would last forever.

Bleeding every 1-2 years as maintenance.....prevents rust from forming. Rebuilding before the cylinder boot and seal fails....prevents wear.

I have an answer to be able to do this.....get seal kits.....I just cannot get to it yet. Too many projects. I will have to mold the boot. I found both liquid Viton and liquid EPDM resin recently.....so thats possible.

Hopefully by Christmas or shortly after I will be nickel plating the bores of some brake cylinders and some caliper pistons. I could easily plate the bores of my slave cylinded cores as well.
Early next week....I may be able to sit down and call one CNC seal houses I have dealt with and get a quote for cost and quantity for the seal.

Most importantly....I will be able to find out what the hardness of the seals will be. If they MUST be 80 durometer.....the next mod will be to seperate the base of the piston on a lathe after installing a screw and locating pin. This will allow installing a machined seal without stretching it.

If I have to do any machine work at all....I will probably go ahead and install a centering band on the piston that will easily double its lifespan.

You can see some of my thoughts and those from others here:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=642625&highlight

The only other issue with the stock 44.5mm cylinder.....is that its really tok big in diameter. It produces an overly soft pedal with no break point feel. If my only option was to fabricate and put in a different cylinder.....I would find one about half the diameter for better pedal feel.

Ray
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MontrealAircooledNut
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: Gear shifting issues Reply with quote

A little update on the situation. The British co. Charged me 99.73 $ Canadian, this includes shipping n handling plus PayPal fees. Parcel took 10 days to reach me. The slave cylinder was extremely well packaged. I removed the old one, as per Ray's instructions. Removal went extremely well, as there is virtually no rust at all on this car. Installation took a bit more time, because I had a hard time screwing back the hydraulic line in the slave cylinder. I added fluid in the reservoir and flushed all the old fluid and bled the system. And now it shifts as it should!!! Thanks a whole bunch Ray for your help and support.
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