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71whitewesty
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2010
Posts: 1544
Location: oregon
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 Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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Your load doesn't seem that heavy to me. Single person with a tin top camper and a motorcycle on the back (I would be concerned with covering the tail lights and license plate though and not having quick access to the engine compartment would make me nervous too). I run mine with an all stock 1600dp, 2 adults, 2 kids, 3 bikes and loaded for camping all the time with little issue. It's slow but it gets there.
I would keep it super simple and go all stock. You probably just need a long block for about $2500 and put all your other parts on it assuming they are still good. Just my two cents. Good luck. 
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71 Westy 1600 DP, all stock Bus 1
1970's Snow Trac 1600 SP (sold 12/2016)
1968 Tucker sno cat, sold 2021
1969 Tucker Sno cat 542
2017 VW Alltrac
71 tin top stock 1600 DP (project but runs)
Twin 71 White Westy, Bus 2, that I pulled from a 15 year slumber in a dry eastern WA field in 2015.
1966 Sundial Camper "Boomer" |
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Davada66
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2017
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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| At no time did I hear in any of your conversations how you broke in the new engine. Here is how you do it. First you use 30 weight break in oil, start the engine and run it at 2000 rpm for 20 minuets, drain the oil replace it with new 30 weight break in oil for the next 500 miles, no climbing hills, vary the speed on the freeway never going over 55 for the first 1000 miles. Make sure your not running the engine too lean it will over heat. Use at least 44idf Weber cooperators, don't expect the carburetors right out of the box are set to run your motor like it should, you may need to play around with the idle jets to get the right mixture, the engine runs in the idle circuit until the engine rpm hit around 2500 after that the main jets take over,even that circuit may need to be tweaked. Always use oil that has high zinc and phosphorous, Brad Penn is one of the best to use its part synthetic /conventional, you can run full synthetic Amsoil 20/50 Z rod oil after you have around 5000 miles on the engine, it is formulate for flat tappet engine. So, break in the engine it takes time and patients |
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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:16 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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I havent' read this all the way through, but if skills hasn't posted this someone should.
Subaru?
_________________
Brutis Patches Izabich: 1970 VW Transporter - 1776cc DP
Current State: Projects never truly end...
Location: Grosse Pointe, Michigan
Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
Sambastic: adj; the quality of being nit picky, elitist, expecting everyone to do things the way they believe is best with no regard to situation, "sambastic" |
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AircooledHome
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2015
Posts: 273
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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| Spike0180 wrote: |
I havent' read this all the way through, but if skills hasn't posted this someone should.
Subaru? |
I hear you loud and clear. I love vw, and aircooled, but that subi swapped westy vanagon I found in Cali and can score for $1500 is sounding better and better.
Or taking up that guy on that free outback and converting this thing to subaru power.
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'71 Deluxe Bus - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=659421&highlight= |
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AircooledHome
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2015
Posts: 273
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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| Davada66 wrote: |
| At no time did I hear in any of your conversations how you broke in the new engine. Here is how you do it. First you use 30 weight break in oil, start the engine and run it at 2000 rpm for 20 minuets, drain the oil replace it with new 30 weight break in oil for the next 500 miles, no climbing hills, vary the speed on the freeway never going over 55 for the first 1000 miles. Make sure your not running the engine too lean it will over heat. Use at least 44idf Weber cooperators, don't expect the carburetors right out of the box are set to run your motor like it should, you may need to play around with the idle jets to get the right mixture, the engine runs in the idle circuit until the engine rpm hit around 2500 after that the main jets take over,even that circuit may need to be tweaked. Always use oil that has high zinc and phosphorous, Brad Penn is one of the best to use its part synthetic /conventional, you can run full synthetic Amsoil 20/50 Z rod oil after you have around 5000 miles on the engine, it is formulate for flat tappet engine. So, break in the engine it takes time and patients |
That's insanity does everyone really take 1500 miles to break in there engines? No thank you. I agree taking it easy on a longish day of travel is a bit much, but I only went for it because the engine builder said that would be fine, and prior to this, I kinda trusted the dude.
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'71 Deluxe Bus - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=659421&highlight= |
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AircooledHome
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2015
Posts: 273
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
you're in a bad spot in a lot of ways....
it's fall. EVERY shop is slammed fixing the seasons blow ups ( racing/dune buggy guys etc)
honestly, I don't know what to say. sadly, we are all forced to use this china fucking trash and "make it work". the big problem is we can "make it work" but really can't make it live.
to use your bus as a DD, it isn't going to be cheap. however a good quality build can gain you some longevity as well.
the problem lies in the parts....before you ever put a boring bar to one of these, you NEED to check/measure everything 100%. sometimes a STD bearing isn't standard....you need to machine stuff to work with the other component. this eats buckets and buckets of time.
sadly the aftermarket has made it so these things will eat themselves every time you hit the key. I spent 9 hours cleaning casting flash out of a "good" set of heads so the cooling would actually work... |
Thanks for your simpathy (laughing crying emotions) it's OK, I've susceped myself to this life and I'm learning how to deal with it. I will figure it out,
In regard to the machining side of things, the guy that build the engines doesn't overlook measuring everything.. He has a graveyard of 40+ busses, and so many parts to choose from, he has all the different size bearings and the tools to check tolerance.. Things I am very new to, but if I were to post a video of him talking thru his method, I am pretty sure you guys would agree he isn't talking out of his ass...
Again, not defending him just explaining. I hope he can either get his sh*t together or give me my money back, I have no problem going elsewhere, other than the snow that's about to fall.
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'71 Deluxe Bus - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=659421&highlight= |
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chabanais
Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2002
Posts: 4866
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| It is a really good strategy to get the John MUIR book |
I'd probably go with Bentley.
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"I spud therefore I yam." |
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TomWesty
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007
Posts: 3482
Location: Wyoming,USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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| AircooledHome wrote: |
| He has a graveyard of 40+ busses |
See a pattern here?    . I couldn't resist.....Best of luck on your build! That part is sincere!
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If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
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TomWesty
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007
Posts: 3482
Location: Wyoming,USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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| chabanais wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
| It is a really good strategy to get the John MUIR book |
I'd probably go with Bentley. |
Both. Muir book has workarounds for some of the specialized tools the Bentley shows. Also the Wilson book if you decide to build your own.[/b]
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richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6980
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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| AircooledHome wrote: |
| Davada66 wrote: |
| At no time did I hear in any of your conversations how you broke in the new engine. Here is how you do it. First you use 30 weight break in oil, start the engine and run it at 2000 rpm for 20 minuets, drain the oil replace it with new 30 weight break in oil for the next 500 miles, no climbing hills, vary the speed on the freeway never going over 55 for the first 1000 miles. Make sure your not running the engine too lean it will over heat. Use at least 44idf Weber cooperators, don't expect the carburetors right out of the box are set to run your motor like it should, you may need to play around with the idle jets to get the right mixture, the engine runs in the idle circuit until the engine rpm hit around 2500 after that the main jets take over,even that circuit may need to be tweaked. Always use oil that has high zinc and phosphorous, Brad Penn is one of the best to use its part synthetic /conventional, you can run full synthetic Amsoil 20/50 Z rod oil after you have around 5000 miles on the engine, it is formulate for flat tappet engine. So, break in the engine it takes time and patients |
That's insanity does everyone really take 1500 miles to break in there engines? No thank you. I agree taking it easy on a longish day of travel is a bit much, but I only went for it because the engine builder said that would be fine, and prior to this, I kinda trusted the dude. |
Taking the break in process seriously and doing it correctly is very very important to the life of the engine. I hope you don't think you're the only one who has cooked a new engine b/c it was immediately taken on a road trip, cause you're not. We are just trying to help you, weather you soak up the information or not is up to you.
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Adventure thread
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Tom Powell
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Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22639
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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| chabanais wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
| It is a really good strategy to get the John MUIR book |
I'd probably go with Bentley. |
Bentley is the Bible, Muir is the catechism.
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Xevin 
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014
Posts: 7624
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| chabanais wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
| It is a really good strategy to get the John MUIR book |
I'd probably go with Bentley. |
Bentley is the Bible, Muir is the catechism. |
Good one Abscate
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Keep on Busin'
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
| Clatter wrote: |
| Damn that Xevin... |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd  |
| SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree  |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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| Abscate wrote: |
| chabanais wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
| It is a really good strategy to get the John MUIR book |
I'd probably go with Bentley. |
Bentley is the Bible, Muir is the schism. |
Fixed that for ya there, Smedley.
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22639
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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OP - break-in is covered in Wilson at the back of the book (page 170?) and is reported between 300-2000 miles for CrMoly rings
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richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6980
Location: Durango, CO
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12848
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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Granted, the engines that you have had installed are of questionable quality, whether it's due to the condition of the cores, the ability of the builder, the quality of the parts now available, or your driving style/needs. Rip that antiquated lump of poop out of there & replace it with a water cooled unit whether it be a Subaru, VW, or any other variety of modern dependable power plants. The original is obviously not capable of your requirements & continuing to screw with one is the definition of insanity.
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Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:23 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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| AircooledHome wrote: |
Hey I've got a question... Am I asking too much from a Type 1 engine? Or am I just unlucky?
...What should I do differently? What should I ask him to make sure of this time? ...
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Let me start at the top. To answer your three questions:
1- No you're not expecting "too much" from a T1 engine.
2- Luck is definitely not the issue here.
3 -You need to get a different engine builder.
4- See #3.
Now I'll get to the meat and potatoes of #3.
| AircooledHome wrote: |
| ...The first engine I put together did the best out of the 3 I've gone thru. I used a case that I knew had excessive end play, bolted up some rebuilt heads and threw some baby weber carbs on and it ran great!...I have never built a case... |
So you've already slapped an engine together yourself, and know the basics.. good, I'm glad to see you got your hands dirty assembling an engine. So let's address the bold issue.
 How much end play did this case have, and was the end play coming from worn thrust bearing saddles, or from an incorrectly shimmed flywheel? Those are the only two reasons for out of spec end play, and it's important to know which one is the cause.
 Next, what was rebuilt about the heads? Do you know how many miles they had on them prior to re-work - even a guess?
| AircooledHome wrote: |
| He uses new bearings and seals and everything else good used German stuff. |
There is nothing wrong with a budget build approach. However, I would not consider bearings and seals + all used parts to be a good rebuild, and that's my opinion; feel free to differ, but hear me out... The Tom Wilson rebuild book has some good advice I'll paraphrase... "used parts are just that, parts that have had their life used up." Some parts are ok to inspect and re-use. Others need to have work done prior to returning to service, and the best example I can think of is a connecting rod. NEVER, EVER, install used rods, because rod problems are essentially the #1 or #2 mechanical cause for air cooled VW engine failures. Rods need machine shop work before re-use.. both ends.
| AircooledHome wrote: |
| ...He cut the heads to raise the compression a bit, which we thought was a good idea for some more power... |
Higher compression can give lower head temps, and the increase in power is nice, too, as long as you are running the appropriate octane gas. You don't mention different heads from the first engine, are they the same? What was the compression ratio, or was it even measured and calculated?
| AircooledHome wrote: |
| ...cylinders, rings and pistons that were used... overheated on the way back big time, put a literal hole in cyl 3...high compression, 110°f day, too (advanced?) timing, and the carbs |
Typical budget rebuild decision to reuse those parts, but just know you're not going to get a full life from these. Issues might be piston slap, out of spec oil consumption, loss of compression, and possibly rod failures... but you found out the hard way here unfortunately. I can't say what caused the overheating or hole in the piston just from your description, but yes it's possible to burn up a piston with timing set wrong, bad compression calculation, and a lean mixture. In your case, all of those are (wait for it)... Builder error. Those are elementary errors, which is why I suggest getting a new builder.
All anyone can do is speculate on the autopsy for that build, but when you have a catastrophic failure, a lot of engine parts go in the trash. I hope that happened...
| AircooledHome wrote: |
| ...he put NEW cylinders, pistons, rings and some stock compression heads that were in good shape on. I drove another 200 miles and the flywheel nut loosened and the thing crapped out. |
And we have builder error, yet again. Flywheel nuts don't just 'loosen,' I don't know who explained them to you but they are torqued to a minimum of 250 in-lbs. A lot of builders go to 300 in-lbs, or use a high strength chomoly nut and go higher than that.
| AircooledHome wrote: |
| ...we installed a newly rebuilt 1700cc engine that had a "mild cam", bigger pistons with heads cut for them, a deep sump and went back to the stock 34 pict 3 carb. (a new Bocar from Mexico)...I'm broken down in the snow on the shoulder... It slowed down to maybe 35 mph and I pulled over. Oil pressure warning lamp flickered good... |
Who built the rebuilt engine, and were any of your previous engine parts used in it? A little odd to go back to a stock(ish) single carb instead of the duals, but it sounds like maybe he couldn't get the duals set right.
So what's the diagnosis on your engine now? A flickering oil light at hot idle is considered normal. There are a few reasons you could have lost speed, like a clogged main jet in the carburetor, needle valve height not set right, blocked air impact tube, bad or incorrectly installed fuel pump, faulty ignition system.
The facts are, your builder made some serious mistakes, and you'd really benefit from some book learning on ACVW. Even if you never rebuild an engine, I recommend the Tom Wilson 'How to rebuild your aircooled vw engine' book and the green Bentley 'Official service manual.'
My opinion is that based on how you've been talking in this thread, a watercooled conversion is not up your alley. Take a look at some of the build threads here. they are either never finished, take forever to complete, or are done quickly at a high cost. None of those three reasons sound compatible with your life situation right now. There is truly nothing wrong with air cooled. You just really have to be patient and pay close attention to your build. It takes hours and hours of work by a competent builder to truly build a functional, long-lasting, good running engine. Generally, I have found that the cheaper the parts used, the more hours it takes to make them work.
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Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22639
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:56 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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I have a huge disagreement with Robert on his post
Flywheel nut gets 250 ft lbs, not inch pounds
Everything else is spot on.
Disclaimer..I don't know actual flywheel spec , but it's in Bentley
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:15 am Post subject: Re: Onto my 4th Engine in 6 months |
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| Abscate wrote: |
I have a huge disagreement with Robert on his post
Flywheel nut gets 250 ft lbs, not inch pounds
Everything else is spot on.
Disclaimer..I don't know actual flywheel spec , but it's in Bentley |
 inch pounds, foot pounds... same difference right. oops
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Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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