Humor me .

[raygreenwood]

[blues90]

[Donnie strickland]

Get in touch with Jim Adney, he probably has one -- [email protected]
_________________
71 Elm Green FI A/T Squareback

[raygreenwood]

[blues90]

[raygreenwood]

Tbe NGK 3922....is a BR6Hs.....thats a 6 heat range in NGk....which is a 7 in Bosch. You woule probably be fine with that.

1000 rpm idle....right there is causing issues. Your centrifugal advance is kicking in and out at idle at that rpm....plus.....that rpm with throttle closed "may be" causing high enough vacuum to run you leaner than normal at idle...depending on how the MPS is adjusted. Ray

[Tram]

[raygreenwood]

[Donnie strickland]

[raygreenwood]

[KTPhil]

On the difference between automatic and stick distributors, here is a pic from another thread:

...this is an overlay from Bentley, adjusted to the same scales. Purple (AC, for stick) and green (AD, for auto) are from the same year ('71), just the tranny is different. Try to ignore the blue ('70 stick) range and the orange line.

I can see that at 100 mm Hg the stick is already pulling advance. Looks like they delayed the auto vac advance, and limited the total vac advance as well.

At 1000 rpm, both mechanical advance curves look the same, though the auto rises a little faster. The vac can for the auto is much more limiting.

I'm still trying to understand just how this benefits each type. Keep in mind the two graph scales (rpm and vacuum) are overlaid, but these values do not correlate exactly... the vacuum varies with load, not RPM, and these are not in lockstep as you speed up.

I never heard of the MPS being adjusting differently for the automatic from the factory. However, with the different vacuum, I could see that today tweaking the part load mixture, and maybe the idle mixture, might have advantages.

[blues90]

I appreciate all the input. I do need to clear up a few things because not everyone helping has seen my posts on each subject.

I described what happened in 2009. What ever I did back then is when this all began. Since that time to today I have put 2,135 miles on this car.

I rebuilt the 73 AH dist i felt since it was not worn in any way other than the fiber washers . I got those from Glenn Ring . In 2015 I pulled the 72 dist and noted that the Pertronix would not fit the AH advance place because of the location of the braided ground strap . I then not in the mood to transfer the advance plates just replaced the old hard dist O'ring seal.

When I put the dist back in I timed it using a timing light . I dropped the RPM down to 850 when I timed it just to see what it would be @ 1000 RPM . The engine was wormed up and @ 1000 RPM is was still 5* BTDC and held steady . Then I opened the throttle to see if it advanced with the dead vacuum can. It did and it was steady yet I didn't write down how far it advanced simply because the tach I have is dash mounted I don't have one that I can connect at the engine.

Point is the mechanical advance didn't really move at all till it was past 1000 engine RPM how much , not sure.

When we talk about hunting . I suppose it could be called a slight hunt if the engine has no load and I try to give it gas to bring the RPM's up from the idle 1000 RPM to 2000 RPM . I would describe it as an engine fighting to smoothly pass through that range . At idle speed I see the RPM a steady 1000 down to a steady 950. It varies. What I hear at idle at the tail pipe is this erratic miss not any hunting at all.

The AAR. Ray we went through that one topic and I found mine does open cold and close all the time. What is odd is when I start the car the idle is 1000 then shortly it raises to 1500 then soon drops to 1000 and stays there. Why it raises to 1500 RPM , all I know is the AAR is still open then and about a year ago it would start cold and show 1500 RPM and stay there for a good 10 minutes at least then when it dropped to 1k the erratic miss would show up. I have no clue what changed since then. I know I've read the AAR should not raise the RPM it only allows more air to enter the IAD past the throttle to compensate for the richer cold start mix. I don't recall it doing this years ago yet I don't recall lots of things now days.

Tram when you say pinch off do you mean between the AAR and oil bath or IAD / throttle body and AAR?

Ray . No I do not unplug the TS-1 then adjust the idle . As far as the MPS .
I did this on the MPS that was in the car which worked perfect all these years even though turns out it was the wrong part number then with TS-1 disconnected I would set the idle only to find I never had the same idle speed each time I stopped the car put in park , in gear it would also change yet not quite that much yet it did get rid of that no load 1k -2k RPM deal and no longer heard that erratic miss. The MPS I have now came from someone you were trying to help with their 69 , turns out it was for a late E system i was told you told them not to send it back pass it on so they did. The E system MPS only has one adjustment just like my old screw together E MPS was and the one I had on the car also riveted and the one I have now. The E system MPS does not have the enrichment like the early systems that is in the TPS .

When I put the NOS you sent to them one on I set the idle with everything connected. It at least lessened the erratic miss where I was not so bothered by it. It didn't alter that 1k-2k struggle I call it. If the engine is cold and first started it does not have that issue and if at that brief moment I unplug TS-1 the engine runs worse. It could be related to the TS-2 or the combination of both at that point in time. In 2009 I did check the ts-1 and 2 resistance cold and hot and then they were right on where they should be. I have not checked them since only because I had the same issue after I did all the work in 2009 which of course I do realize that does not rule out the fact they may be off by now yet think 2,135 miles is all I've driven since that time. If anything the head temp sensor could be off now.

Now here I am. I don't know if TS-2 is acting as it should . I know the NOS MPS has not been adjusted . I know the vacuum advance might help . I know the dist is not advancing over the 1K it's steady . I don't know what the advance is between 1k and 2K when it struggles.

I can put the proper AH dist in after I check the one in the car for advance and compare and check the TS-2 and TS-1 . Sort of difficult to see the tach on top of the dash when at the rear of the car and I don't have a timing light that has RPM and all the extras. I used to have a Snap on dwell /tach yet someone walked away with it. It was analog 4,6 & 8 cylinder.

(If all is in order how do I tweak the MPS and know it's where it should be ?) When the 1k-2k struggle ends? When the erratic miss stops? By the best vacuum reading as one used to do in the old days when adjusting carb idle mix screws?

Last time I did this with the old E system one in order to attempt to pass smog I dug away the epoxy and then had a vacuum leak around the adjustment screw so I put silicone to seal it let it dry and could adjust with no more leak at the adjustment screw, ON that unit you cannot run the screw all the way in to remove the bellows it's a slotted screw that was flared out at the adjustment end . From what I read there is an O'ring seal around this screw so perhaps the NOS unit will not have that issue and the adjustment screw is a allen head and not flared.

I do want to point out that Jim does not feel anyone should adjust the MPS and that NOS sitting could be worse than used . How do I know this , Daniel and Neena and their posts on type 3 .ORG . I don't think Jim had a distributor machine at least he never said he did. Glenn Ring does. I should have taken the one sitting in the shop in the 80's that no one ever used.

I do not like to include other people like Jim simply because he knows his type 3 stuff yet will not agree with what some say to do here on Samba.

[raygreenwood]

Ok....here is the problem....or part of it. You have way too many things that are not exactly right. You are troubleshooting a stock engine with a stock system...right?

Put all of it back and make sure it works. All the right parts....all in good shape.

If you cannot find the exact part #;s...like distributor or advance unit...thats OK...than can work fine or even better....but understand that you WILL need to make adjustments in that case. These adjustments will be in the form of timing, MPS adjustment, maybe ballasting of the TS-2 and tweaking of springs in the distributor...and yes you may need the help of someone with a distributor machine to get that right.

[blues90]

Ray the AAR on this car being an auto trans is electric not adjustable.

At this point without a dist vacuum can that works , all mine does is keep the vacuum advance from moving on it's own.

I can check the 2 temp sensors to see if they are in range of where they should be and install the 73 AH distributor and see if it makes any difference.

I can check for vacuum leaks that I may have missed. The fuel pressure is @ 30 PSI where it should be. I raised it to 32 and it didn't change a thing.

Beyond this if nothing changes for the better well then I'll just have to deal with it when I can since money is an issue. That would include having the dist checked on a machine and if either temp sensor is out of range and most likely it would be the head temp sensor. And having some one check the mix with a sniffer. I have no idea why the idle gets up to 1500 even though it's not for more than a minute and the AAR does close completely and it's open when cold. The engine oil does not smell like gasoline nor does it thin out or rise in level if anything it leaks and I need to add a bit once in a while.

I have not checked to see if any injector leaks down or has a bad pattern yet don't see any evidence of this and I have not checked compression . I can go over the valves again even though I went through them twice in 2015. I can pull one plug wire at a time to see if all drop close to the same RPM wise.

Over all I'm still lost on how on earth this car had none of these issues before 2009 when I did the work I described. That is another story that really doesn't matter anymore. As far as driving it if it didn't show the odd no load deal no one would say it ran bad . It does not over heat and has never shown signs of that.

And yes it's all stock the engine is. The only parts that are not is the exhaust EPI not so quiet pack which has a leak on the right side from the header to heat exchanger pipe. And now the 2 port fuel pump. Oh and the Pertronix instead of points. I was on the freeway in 2015 and all I did was change the oil before and all I noticed was the steering had a lot of play so I replaced the tie rod ends. It did 65 which was the speed limit without any problems and it was not a cold day.

[Mike Fisher]

Blues90 is mistaken if he thinks Daniel & Neena don't adjust their MPS. Their car was rebuilt/painted by Tram & they follow his lead as I do! Daniel has a bung welded on his tailpipe for computer hookup/tuning. Tram keeps mine running/driving sweet & fine tunes it with his sniffer temporarily clamped to my tailpipe! If it ever dies when shifting from R to D then I set the idle up a touch higher myself. It still starts slow when it is cold, but I just accept that it is a 48 YO FI system that will never start quite as well as the newer FI systems. Jim Adney's add on primer switch does not help cold starting either it doesn't seem like.
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

[raygreenwood]

[blues90]

[blues90]

Also......whether gou can adjust it or not....the electric AAR....which for example....are all type 4 has ever had.....DO have an identical adjustment inside to the manual trans model.....you just cant get to it! ....and with age I can guarantee you its off.

But.....you CAN....adjust it.....with a little craftiness. If its open too much and closing too slowly.....put a plug in its inlet ljne....with an orifice drilled in it to limit the flow. Works great.

The point of my last post....is to get everything NORMAL.....and then test....and prepare to adjust the MPS. Ray[/quote]

Yes I forgot you can adjust the electric AAR if you want to get inside it . Mine does not act like it stays on to long and at this point I need to check other things before I focus on the AAR . It's easy enough to plug it off and see if it in any way causes the 1500 RPM 1 minute long idle speed. If it does great , one less thing to wonder about . I know it's older than dirt and anything is possible.

[raygreenwood]

Yes...when they work well and are not gummed up or burned out the electrjcs are excellent.

The problem with getting an MPS back to.....so called....."original".....is that its PATENTLY IMPOSSIBLE.

The diaphragm on later models...and the aneroid can on ALL models......are made of beryllium copper. That is a work hardening material. With time and flexing cycles.....it becomes stiffer than it was in its new annealed state. That....and the two sets of leaf springs and single coil spring in kate models and single leaf and coil spring in early models......get a qlevel of compression set as all springs do.

This does not mean they are broken...just that bench setting with an induction meter...is just that...bench setting. It does not guarantee by any means that the response will be factory linear....when a vacuum signature with cylinder oscillation is applied...and with engine compartment heat.

It can get you close enough......that when else in the engine is PERFECT and BONE STOCK.....which is rare now.....that you can take a bench adjusted MPS and get it to run well....with maybe just a tweak.

Trust me...having worked on well over a fhousand D-jet systems......the vacuum signature of engines....along with the age/wear sensitivity variation of even bench set MPS's.....rarely gets you running correctly just by snapping it in. About 75% or more need some adjustment.

This irrational fear of tuning coupled with maniacal belief thaf a system with no logic can sort itself out.....if you can just get bsck to "0".....is what keeps giving tbe D-jet system a bad reputation as not reliable, poor running, difficult, a mystery....blah, blah blah. Ray

[Bobnotch]