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VolkswagenNate
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Tennessee
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 Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:14 pm Post subject: Oil pump cover question |
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Hey everyone! Long time lurker, thanks for the great knowledge over the years.
Just picked up a 74 super and i'm trying to get an engine ready to put in. The engine i'm using has a single outlet oil pump cover. Can i swap it for this mexibug style one, or do i have to swap the whole pump. i put it on, it looks like it should work. And then i'll plug where the case was tapped for the return.
. The studs do seem a bit short. |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24736
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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Yes you can. Need to match pump to cam gear used.
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VolkswagenNate
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| Cool, thank you. So covers dont matter regarding flat vs dished cam. It's the pump itself that matters. |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24736
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| VolkswagenNate wrote: |
| Cool, thank you. So covers dont matter regarding flat vs dished cam. It's the pump itself that matters. |
Exactly, and if the Mexi one does not come in the flat gear flavor, you could have the longer dished drive gear shaft machined down. That could even be done with hacksaw and file if need be.
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David_nc_72std
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2015
Posts: 841
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| VolkswagenNate wrote: |
Hey everyone! Long time lurker, thanks for the great knowledge over the years.
Just picked up a 74 super and i'm trying to get an engine ready to put in. The engine i'm using has a single outlet oil pump cover. Can i swap it for this mexibug style one, or do i have to swap the whole pump. i put it on, it looks like it should work. And then i'll plug where the case was tapped for the return.
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Just to clearify what you are asking, you want to leave the oil pump that is currently in the engine, and just swap the covers?
Also, are you sure the current oil pump has an outlet to the engine case? If the oil was meant to flow out the cover and back via the return connection, the oil passage in the engine might be blocked off. |
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VolkswagenNate
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| David_nc_72std wrote: |
| VolkswagenNate wrote: |
Hey everyone! Long time lurker, thanks for the great knowledge over the years.
Just picked up a 74 super and i'm trying to get an engine ready to put in. The engine i'm using has a single outlet oil pump cover. Can i swap it for this mexibug style one, or do i have to swap the whole pump. i put it on, it looks like it should work. And then i'll plug where the case was tapped for the return.
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Just to clearify what you are asking, you want to leave the oil pump that is currently in the engine, and just swap the covers?
Also, are you sure the current oil pump has an outlet to the engine case? If the oil was meant to flow out the cover and back via the return connection, the oil passage in the engine might be blocked off. |
Exactly, switch covers not pumps.
I took this engine out of a sandrail. There was a small piece of tubing going straight from the empi cover to the brass fitting on the case, not sure why. Then there was an oil filter and external oil cooler ran in line hooked up behind the fan shroud, i guess at where the stock oil cooler would have been hooked up. Its an offroad ram-air style shroud.
Im wanting to have the filter down here by the pump and leave the cooler up above the shroud.
Also not sure what the best placement of the cooler will be, i know a stock one would be better, but just working with what i have. |
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VolkswagenNate
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| David, is there a way i could tell if that passage is blocked off? I guess that would make sense since he had the tube going straight from the cover back into the case at that fitting. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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I'd like to see a picture of the oil pump without the cover on.
Because
You can probably put a single outlet kind of cover on a in/out pump,
But
You CAN'T put an in/out cover on a regular oil pump.
CB, bugpack, empi, and VW mexico have made special oil pumps that can use a cover with a filter, but you can't mix and match too much, the passages in the cover have to line up with the passages in the pump. |
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VolkswagenNate
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| modok wrote: |
I'd like to see a picture of the oil pump without the cover on.
Because
You can probably put a single outlet kind of cover on a in/out pump,
But
You CAN'T put an in/out cover on a regular oil pump.
CB, bugpack, empi, and VW mexico have made special oil pumps that can use a cover with a filter, but you can't mix and match too much, the passages in the cover have to line up with the passages in the pump. |
I'll post one in the morning.
But now i'm thinking maybe i should stick with the single outlet cover, and put the filter between it and the return on the case.
Is there a reason the po ran the filter up by the oil cooler in the first place? Maybe just because it was on a sandrail to keep it up out of the way? |
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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make sure the cover is lapped dead flat, else there can be a huge oil pressure loss, and make sure the ckver gasket is one of the ultr thin ones, NOT the thick one s
used between pump and the case. the cover gasket should be ultra thin, on the order of .002 /.004 INCH maximum else pressure will be lost. do not lkad the gasket with sealer either, make sure the ring groove arlund the pump body is kept clear , it has a groove co ing off the ring groove that leads to the suction side of pump, this then sucks any oil leaking back into the pump, fill that groove with sealer and that function is defeated.
good luck
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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If you want to run a oil pump/filter deal, and plug "return port" on the case, that's fine if it works for you, just make sure you get the right pieces in the right places of course.
IMO it's a good idea to always modify the case to have a return fitting, because that lets you add a remote filter, remote filter and additional cooler, or a filter, cooler AND an a oil thermostat, later on if needed.
next week, we'll have a guy wanting to drill and tap for the return fitting with the engine fully assembled....yikes!  Everybody wants something different.
yeah I did have a buddy with a rail who knocked off the oil filter, but it was kinda his own darn fault, his skid plate was far too flimsy. |
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Bashr52
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2006
Posts: 5666
Location: On an island in VA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| What is your thought behind eliminating the best oil filtration setup, to one less efficient? |
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VolkswagenNate
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| Bashr52 wrote: |
| What is your thought behind eliminating the best oil filtration setup, to one less efficient? |
Good question. I guess i didnt realize that's what i was doing until i started reading up on it. My thinking at the time was to eliminate extra oil lines and have a cleaner looking engine bay.
I think the plan now is to stick with the original cover and mount a filter maybe under the fender.
Now just to find a pump cover gasket, no one seems to carry them locally
By the way, do i need self-sealing nuts? |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24736
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| VolkswagenNate wrote: |
Good question. I guess i didnt realize that's what i was doing until i started reading up on it. My thinking at the time was to eliminate extra oil lines and have a cleaner looking engine bay. |
The external oil filter is supposedly better if you are going to drag race the engine as a norm. The Mexi and CB Maxi 2 oil filter pumps are fine for a daily driver that one is not going to rev it so high. Added bonus is no external hoses that can burst/rub thru/burn on the hot exhaust.
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| VolkswagenNate wrote: |
| Bashr52 wrote: |
| What is your thought behind eliminating the best oil filtration setup, to one less efficient? |
Good question. I guess i didnt realize that's what i was doing until i started reading up on it. My thinking at the time was to eliminate extra oil lines and have a cleaner looking engine bay.
I think the plan now is to stick with the original cover and mount a filter maybe under the fender.
Now just to find a pump cover gasket, no one seems to carry them locally
By the way, do i need self-sealing nuts? |
self sealing nuts will help stop leaks.
http://www.jbugs.com/product/111115161.html
http://www.jbugs.com/product/111115131B.html
good luck bug on!
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Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
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bluebus86
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Posts: 11075
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SBD
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2012
Posts: 3269
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
| clean look of the motor, or clean oil. which to choose? |
 Both of the systems the OP is now considering filter all of the oil...
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| I wouldent waste $ or thyme on building a small motor. build it big so it dosent have to work hard.remember it's only as fast as your foot alows it to be unless you build a small turd then it just stinks as it squishes up through your toes when you step on it. |
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VolkswagenNate
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2017
Posts: 69
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| modok wrote: |
I'd like to see a picture of the oil pump without the cover on.
Because
You can probably put a single outlet kind of cover on a in/out pump,
But
You CAN'T put an in/out cover on a regular oil pump.
CB, bugpack, empi, and VW mexico have made special oil pumps that can use a cover with a filter, but you can't mix and match too much, the passages in the cover have to line up with the passages in the pump. |
Im pretty sure i'm going to run the filter under the fender now, but here's pics anyway if anyone is interested.
The single outlet cover was on it already, so i know for sure it works. It shouldn't interfere with any exhaust options, and i found an easy place under the fender for the filter. So it seems like the obvious choice. I just wish i hadn't taken it off in the first place, now i gotta wait to get the new gasket in the mail.
Thanks for your input everyone
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| SBD wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
| clean look of the motor, or clean oil. which to choose? |
Both of the systems the OP is now considering filter all of the oil... |
the smaller oil filter of the type that fits near the muffler, mounted on the modified cover will filter less oil than a remote mounted large high performance filter. the smaller dinky filter of the cover mounted filter will bypass a larger percentage of oil than the remote mounted larger filter.
Neither system filters all the oil, even a commingly called "full flow" system does bypass unless the bypass function built into most filter is eliminated. A tiny filter will bypass more as a greater pressure drop would be experienced, given the same filter media pore size. Only a tiny filter can fit on the cover mounted filter option shown here.
Neither system short of a special non bypass filter installed will filter all the oil, , but one of the two systems has the ability to accept the better larger, finer filtration filter, with less bypassing. Thus it potentially can clean the oil much better than the lesser system, the pump mounted filter style. 
good luck
PS cooling looking Kelmark GT you have, I have a red one.
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Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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volksworld
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2011
Posts: 2529
Location: formerly NY currently NC
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Oil pump cover question |
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| stick with what you have...the filter style cover has 2 holes....one in, one out of the filter...it needs a matching pump with an in and out hole ....your existing pump has no outlet hole into the case....the oil can only be returned through the fitting drilled into the block....so if you bolted that cover on your pump you would have zero oil pressure....and if you bolted the filter cover onto a stock pump nothing would go through the filter (and since a stock pump has an outlet hole drilled into it ,if you bolted your single outlet cover onto a stock pump nothing would flow out of the hose untill you plugged the stock outlet in the pump) |
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