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67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ???
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fifthcenturycheese Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

It sounds louder in person, especially on the passenger side. Yeah, I know, the fuel line is gonna get changed out tomorrow.... The muffler is going to be changed out and I am changing the valve cover gaskets with that WW space age material gaskets.... Again, all valves have been adjusted to .006 , still sounds like a Diesel Rabbit...


https://youtu.be/nyaxF0ecSbg

Thanks, Mike
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:21 am    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

Doesn’t sound abnormal to me, but others may have a better ear. One thing that is a free fix is checking to see if all the tin screws are in place. Loose tins can clatter sometimes.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

I hear a noisy valve train and a possible exhaust leak. Since the valve clearance is already verified good, check for binding of the rocker arms and scoring or roughness of the side thrust surfaces of the rocker arms and rocker shaft supports, as well as excessively worn or broken spring washers.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

mark tucker wrote:
...smoke trying to get out.


you definitely don't want to let the smoke out, although a little escaping on start up is nothing to worry about as there is usually plenty of smoke still left on reserve.

You may just be hearing an exhaust leak... are you getting a backfire on decel?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

Sounds like a rocker hitting the valve cover to me but that shouldn't be the case with stock components.

Get a mechanics stethoscope from HF. They are pretty cheap but they work well. By moving the probe across the valve cover, you can hear each rocker individually. Might help locate that noise. You'll end up using it more than you would think you would.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

Thanks for viewing the video of my engine, I appreciate the feedback. I did take a stethoscope around the valve cover areas and found it to be louder around #1. I purchased the vehicle 2 weeks ago with 2000 to 3000 miles on the rebuilt engine, so I am slowly cleaning things up the way I think they should be. When I replace valve cover gaskets with new improved WW stuff, I will check the valve train again for the binding and wear issues that were brought up. I will be replacing the muffler as it looks as if the one on there is tweaked for some reason and may be leaking. At the time of the exhaust change, I will check all the tins to see they are tight. Like I said, the noise seems a lot louder in person when behind the car and while driving it! The youtube video does not capture the noise very well. Will report results. Thank you, Mike
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

I attempted to change the muffler that was tweaked and found the driver side heater box was cockeyed and one of the studs was bent on the exhaust port. So, I pulled the engine to look at things closer....and upon inspection found a bent push rod for number 4 exhaust valve. All push rods measured 11 1/16" tip to tip. ALL the rocker arm tips are hammered/mashed flat. I found galling on the rocker shafts and inside the rocker arms for both sides of the engine. Finally, there were no seals between shaft studs and the blocks! What amazes me is how well the engine was performing in this condition for the last 200 miles. Not sure if I should take the case down to find out what I have , or if I can get away with new valve train. I would like to have a healthy reliable engine using quality parts. Any suggestions on any of this? Thanks guys for following this post.

Mike
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

Wow.. if that was my engine and I found that horror on the top end, I'd absolutely split the case and inspect everything. Someone thru that engine together quickly and either was clueless in building it or simply didn't care.

Any GEX stickers on it anywhere? Any idea who built that engine?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

Yeah, it had an AUTO METRIC sticker on the air cleaner! Not sure when it was stuck on, but that was the sticker...funny you asked. Maybe I should just start shopping for long blocks....
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

Since the engine was a strong runner, I'd be inclined to check the endplay and if that is still in spec to then fix the valve train issues. Once running again, check the compression numbers and oil pressure. If the endplay is out of spec or after running again you find the compression and/or oil pressure readings aren't what they should be, go with a tear down and rebuild.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

Mukluk, there is no end play with this engine. The car has been a strong runner for the last 200 miles that I have put on it. What would you suggest for rocker assemblies and push rods? Not sure if I should spend the money on the assemblies or split the case.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:10 am    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

It looks like the rockers (and shafts) are not getting enough oil.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

fifthcenturycheese wrote:
Mukluk, there is no end play with this engine. The car has been a strong runner for the last 200 miles that I have put on it. What would you suggest for rocker assemblies and push rods? Not sure if I should spend the money on the assemblies or split the case.


While I'm not fully disagreeing with what Mukluk is suggesting in checking the bottom end, I personally like to know I can trust my new to me engine. It's only a few extra hours to split the case and inspect it. If you found everything to be perfectly good and in spec, you could just clean it and put it back together.

My 67 bugs engine ran perfectly fine when I bought it. Good oil pressure. The end play was in spec. I kept getting a little debris like grit in the oil during oil changes. I ended up dropping the engine and splitting the case. I found a couple of main bearings that had worn thru the babbit material and a sump full of grit.
I rebuilt it and now I can 100% trust this engine to take me across the country if need be.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

Stock engine, I'd stick with stock rocker assemblies and push rods.

I do agree it appears the rocker assembly was likely not getting adequate lubrication, but with the appearance of the adjuster screws I get the impression the entire rocker assembly was reused without any eye toward disassembly and cleaning/inspection, or replacing worn parts where required. Be sure when installing the replacements that the oil passages in the rocker arms and push rods are clear, and that the split in the rocker shaft mount blocks face upwards.

Tearing the whole thing down wouldn't be a bad idea at all, but truthfully I get the impression the OP isn't very experienced in the matter or quite confident of their abilities, otherwise the suggestion of just looking for a long block wouldn't have come up so quickly. Due to that impression, that's why I recommended the bottom end checks that I did to determine if this engine is a breakdown waiting to happen or if it should be capable of being used for a while.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

I suggested a new long block when I saw the way the engine had been thrown together, I was just assuming the worst and will only accept a reliable engine in my car. I am, by no means, an expert on VW engines so I am a donating member of the Samba because I value the information and help found here. Thank you all that have been following this thread, that being said, I split the case to see if the problem stopped somewhere... What I found was new looking pistons, cylinders, main bearings, cam bearings, lifters look good, oil pump good. The case is a Mexican AS-41 and the casting does look a little rough. In the HP publication "How to rebuild your Volkswagen air cooled engine" it says on page 54 not to use a 3 rivet flat cam gear because the oil passage is large and will allow air to be sucked up during sharp turns and abrupt stops which can cause loss of oil pressure! I decided to split the case after inspecting the oil, it had chunks in the sediment, a tiny bit magnetic, most not. Included are a few pictures I took when it all came apart....tell me if you see something that stands out....and thanks, Mike
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

Wow, the crap on the sump plate is pretty scary! Since you have it apart, I'd clean EVERYTHING spotlessly clean. The oil passages in the case and crank need to be scrubbed out too with small barrel brushes. Once everything is clean, it would be time to get out the measuring tools and start mic'ing everything like you're assembling a new engine. Measure all the clearances carefully including each rod bearing too.

You can use the "How to rebuild VW engines" book as a guide. Start at the section where you've cleaned everything surgically clean and are about to start assembling it.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

wcfvw69, I was going to start cleaning things but the story gets scarier! Upon further inspection, the three rivet cam rivets are loose allowing it to shift 4 or 5 degrees! Enough material went through the system to wear the cam bearings and the crank is starting to show scoring as well. So, I was hoping the tolerances were still good but it's not going to happen. I may just stick this thing in a box for another day and just get a fresh long block. Have considered Scat long blocks, but not sure if I should put in a 1600sp, 1600dp or a 1776. Just looking to have a real reliable driver with some extra power. If anyone has any input on that, I would appreciate it. Thanks again! Mike
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

fifthcenturycheese wrote:
wcfvw69, I was going to start cleaning things but the story gets scarier! Upon further inspection, the three rivet cam rivets are loose allowing it to shift 4 or 5 degrees! Enough material went through the system to wear the cam bearings and the crank is starting to show scoring as well. So, I was hoping the tolerances were still good but it's not going to happen. I may just stick this thing in a box for another day and just get a fresh long block. Have considered Scat long blocks, but not sure if I should put in a 1600sp, 1600dp or a 1776. Just looking to have a real reliable driver with some extra power. If anyone has any input on that, I would appreciate it. Thanks again! Mike


This is why I posted earlier about not trusting engines that I didn't know the history of. You and I both found horrors when we split the cases. The good news is you will now have an engine you can count on that is being rebuilt or if you buy a new long block.

My vote? Keep the engine single port. They are bulletproof with great torque, rock solid heads that you don't have to worry about cracking between the plugs, etc. You can still run the 1967 30-1 carb and 205K distributor that are rock solid and are a low maintenance parts.

When I rebuilt my 67's original engine, I had the rotating assembly balanced. Crank, flywheel, pressure plate, pistons, rods, etc.. It made a difference for sure. It runs great and has plenty of power. I can cruise down the freeway at 70-75 no problem. I can also climb some pretty long, steep mountain grades at 45 MPH.


If I did it again, I would of bought a new counter balanced 69mm crank and balanced everything as well. The only other upgrade you should consider is installing a doghouse fan shroud. It get's the oil cooler out of the way of the cooling air to cylinder 3 and has a bigger cooling fan.

My 2 cents.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

I agree with wcfvw69. That sounds like what I hope to build for my '66. The only thing I would add is an oil pump with the oil filter on it...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 67, assumed 1600 sp noisy like diesel even at idle, great hp ??? Reply with quote

The diesel clacking was probably that loose cam gear, or possibly that bent rod. You seemed happy with the power it made before you took it down. Why not just fix the cam gear, throw some new (or old) pushrods in, and clean up some OG rockers and put it all back together?

The parts to fix it are all super cheap or free. People practically give away stock pushrods and OG rockers and shafts. At least you could run it around until it REALLY blows up. By then you might have your new engine built. Everyone has a story about the POS VW engine that just keeps running, and running..
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