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Vansandplans
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 1
Location: Gilbert Arizona
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 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:26 pm Post subject: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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| Yes I know they’re are similar threads but I’m looking for a little more of a specific response. So I’ve come to realize over the years that there is nothing like the practicality, space and coolness of a Vanagon. That being said, I have owned many four wheel drive trucks and even currently own a Mitsubishi Delica (pleeease no hate) and use the 4x4 a lot, and like I said the size and functionality of the Vanagon is one of a kind which brings me to wanting a syncro very badly. And now just having learned that they are not actually “four wheel drive” but rather all wheel drive and some coming with rear lockers I’m kind of at a standstill on what I think. Now upon reading about the awd system that the syncro has and it’s off road usability, all I have been seeing is something along the lines of: “if you did it without a rear locker then you could have done it with a two wheel drive”. I have had many off road experiences in which there was absolutely no way I could have done anything in two wheel drive, I simply needed to drop to 4x4. So to get to my question, it seems like traditional 4x4 is ranked about the same to a syncro with dif locks and then a stock awd syncro is ranked a tier down. How is the stock awd compared to just the regular 2 wheel drive? Is it better to just find a 2wd Vanagon as opposed to a non locking syncro? |
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syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12005
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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Even a locked 2wd isn't as good as a vanilla non locked syncro.
Link
All vanagons suffer in the articulation department that is why the lockers are desireable in syncros if the tires start going into the air. |
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Syncro Jael
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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My Syncro came as a non-locker AWD. When converting my Syncro to front and rear lockers, decoupler, I looked into a solid shaft and removing the VC to have a true 4WD vehicle. Since I do drive during the winter, here in Utah, I was told not to loose the AWD capability that the VC gives you. I am glad I did not go solid shaft.
I can tell you from experience, pulling the center knob and coupling the front end is a day and night difference for the vehicle in any conditions. Even having the rear locked the van does not perform anywhere near what it does when the front end is engaged. If someone is telling you their 2WD with a locker or Peloquin ATB (automatic torque biasing) performs as well as a non-locker Syncro, well let's just say they need to own both before making that statement. A locked or ATB 2WD is much better than a "one" wheel drive and pulling the park brake.
My van has a SPORT VC installed and is very good on ice and snow packed roads. Just last weekend I showed my wife exactly what a difference the AWD system makes in snow.
But then you can get into this situation. (photos for reference)
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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IdahoDoug
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10248
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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Wow, can't believe we are at this point already! I've gotta get our winter tires on soon - snow here Thursday.
Doug
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6829
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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| IdahoDoug wrote: |
Wow, can't believe we are at this point already! I've gotta get our winter tires on soon - snow here Thursday.
Doug |
Yep...Fluid Film season again!
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Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6829
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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| Vansandplans wrote: |
| Yes I know they’re are similar threads but I’m looking for a little more of a specific response. So I’ve come to realize over the years that there is nothing like the practicality, space and coolness of a Vanagon. That being said, I have owned many four wheel drive trucks and even currently own a Mitsubishi Delica (pleeease no hate) and use the 4x4 a lot, and like I said the size and functionality of the Vanagon is one of a kind which brings me to wanting a syncro very badly. And now just having learned that they are not actually “four wheel drive” but rather all wheel drive and some coming with rear lockers I’m kind of at a standstill on what I think. Now upon reading about the awd system that the syncro has and it’s off road usability, all I have been seeing is something along the lines of: “if you did it without a rear locker then you could have done it with a two wheel drive”. I have had many off road experiences in which there was absolutely no way I could have done anything in two wheel drive, I simply needed to drop to 4x4. So to get to my question, it seems like traditional 4x4 is ranked about the same to a syncro with dif locks and then a stock awd syncro is ranked a tier down. How is the stock awd compared to just the regular 2 wheel drive? Is it better to just find a 2wd Vanagon as opposed to a non locking syncro? |
You really need to see some more You Tube videos about the Syncro vs. Landrovers, etc., etc. 😂😂😂
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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| Quote: |
| “if you did it without a rear locker then you could have done it with a two wheel drive” |
Positively one of the silliest things ever said, no one with Syncro offroad driving experience could ever come to that conclusion.
| Quote: |
| much better than a "one" wheel drive |
Just as an aside, Ron, do you understand that with an open diff, both output shafts receive exactly the same torque no matter what? The weakness of an open diff is, rather, that the maximum torque both axles receive is limited by the wheel with the least traction.
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0to60in6min
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Joined: November 27, 2006
Posts: 3416
Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
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candyman
Samba Trout Slayer
Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 2694
Location: Missoula MT
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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| I love a good syncro vs 2wd discussion. Makes me glad I have both |
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snowsyncro
Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2009
Posts: 1557
Location: East Preston, Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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Oh My Goodness.
Right now, 3PM, at my house (Nova Scotia, Canada) it is 16C (60F) and sunny.
And I just mowed the lawn.
RonC |
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0to60in6min
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006
Posts: 3416
Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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the best is having opinions of someone who own or try these off-road
- Syncro front and rear diff locker
- Syncro rear diff locker
- Syncro no locker
- 2WD with LSD
- stock 2WD
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IdahoDoug
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10248
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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I would say to the OP that the comparison of a fully locked Syncro vs a traditional 4X4 vehicle in offroad conditions would be valid. The 4X4 would be superior in some conditions due to likely better ground clearance, likely greater travel, likely ability to have larger tires, and having a low range. Sticking with the same comparo, the Syncro would be superior where fully locked traction is a larger issue. So, a rough equality with wiggles based on trail conditions.
But the 2WD Vanagon vs base unlocked Syncro I agree with others that the Syncro is significantly superior due to greater ground clearance, underbody protection, and the powered front axles. Modifying a 2WD closes the gap only incrementally and of course if modifications are allowed, the Syncro would benefit from the same modifications.
Doug
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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mrshrimp
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2013
Posts: 373
Location: Portland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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| I still don't understand how the VC is superior to a van coupled in 4WD, specifically in the snow. I've driven my van coupled and in 4WD full time around town and on the highway and it did great. Is there a downside to this? |
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0to60in6min
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006
Posts: 3416
Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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| Quote: |
| I still don't understand how the VC is superior to a van coupled in 4WD |
it's my turn to not understand your question...
you mean VC vs. solid shaft? |
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mrshrimp
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2013
Posts: 373
Location: Portland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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| Yes, sorry I missed that part in my comment . Solid shaft vs VC, thanks. |
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0to60in6min
Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006
Posts: 3416
Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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as far as I know... VC acts as a clutch which means it can slip - solid shaft is direct contact with the front diff. no slipping...
soo.. in extreme condition VC will slip and leave you stranded - solid shaft will keep going till it destroys the front diff...
some others may have better explanation than mine... |
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Bassyaks
Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2010
Posts: 1137
Location: S.E. Connetitcut
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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| A stock VC will slip in 4WD conditions,the VC is not pulling 100% of the time, it waits till slippage is evident than starts to engage, sometimes in extreme 4WD conditions thats too late |
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Syncro Jael
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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| Bassyaks wrote: |
| A stock VC will slip in 4WD conditions,the VC is not pulling 100% of the time, it waits till slippage is evident than starts to engage, sometimes in extreme 4WD conditions thats too late |
Driving on slick, icy, snowy roads, you want AWD and not 4WD. True 4WD means that all (4)four wheels are turning at the same rotational speeds. That means the inside wheels, on a turn, are now already spinning and have lost traction. Not what you want. That is why if you plan to drive your Syncro on the highway, you want a VC.
From what I have seen, my Sport VC has almost zero lag time when it feels the rear end slip.
I do not want to get into a debate on really how the VC works. It is connected 100% all of the time, just not very much at first. Unless you have a decoupler the front and rear diffs are always connected. The Viscous Coupler always has the front and rear diff connected, but slips, then when it slips it instantaneously connects even more until all of the torque can be sent to the front end if the rear wheels have no traction. Does that make sense? I have been in this debate before so I made this video. It is always connected but slips until there is a large disparity between the front and rear differentials, then it locks up even tighter.
Yes, if all you want is true 4WD then you need a solid shaft and remove the VC and have front and rear lockers.
As you can see in the video. Spinning any wheel on the van, all four wheels will spin. If have the front end on the ground, then the rears will rotate but you will feel the friction of the VC and it makes the rear wheels difficult to almost impossible to turn by hand.
Mind you this is a Sport VC. My stock VC got too aggressive and would not pass the VC 2x4 test. I want some give while on icy roads and on the slick rock in Utah.
Link
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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Syncro Jael
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
| Just as an aside, Ron, do you understand that with an open diff, both output shafts receive exactly the same torque no matter what? The weakness of an open diff is, rather, that the maximum torque both axles receive is limited by the wheel with the least traction. |
Yup I understand. I was just pointing out that if you use the hand brake you can trick the open diff into sending torque to the wheel with some traction. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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mrshrimp
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2013
Posts: 373
Location: Portland
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro “AWD” Capabilty |
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Let's disregard he true 4WD idea, meaning front and rear lockers engaged. I understand that it is back to drive around with every tire turning the same rotational speed.
But what about coupled solid shaft vs VC? Coupled solid shaft so all four tires getting power all the time, as opposed to VC when tires get power when slippage occurs. Why is VC considered better in snow between these two drive options? |
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