Building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle

[Energy Concepts]

[ALIKA T3]

[ALIKA T3]

Energy Concept: I just opened the Eurovan transmission out of curiosity for the thrust washer. I didn't have the proper tools to take more apart than the discs and such.
The Syncro transmission is done, gotta get the M-Tdi engine running now, that's next with my Syncro conversion.

My automatic transmission is doing good, I finally fixed it for real: got it working perfectly over the last weekend camping, I had a thread opened to try to diagnose what was wrong, it took me quite a lot of inspection in details to find out why.
If you need thrust washers in a hurry, I have a few on hand
Cheers!
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget

[Energy Concepts]

There we go !
At first I thought, Filter right before the Auto Trans.

Then, thinking about Your numbers;
That Dirt Leaves the Auto Trans
and should be Filtered out Then.
To Keep the Dirt From Settling into
all of the other cooling Components.

And, the Fan Sensor is on the Secondary Loop,
As pictured by the OP'r.
Letting the Trans Warm up.

So, Here's what I ended up with:

Final Answer !
Thanks Alika T3 for your help !!!

John C...
PS: thanks for your offer! my thrust washers
are showing warehouse transfer status
and should ship Today !!! Yay !!!

&&& Glad your Auto is up & running good !!! (I'm jealous !!!

[Energy Concepts]

[Weezyissuperfast]

I finally finished my AT rebuild and got my van back on the road last week. So far so good. I just wanted to say thanks to the whole community for sharing all of this valuable documentation, experience, and advice. I would never have attempted this rebuild without the experiences shared here.

[Energy Concepts]

12 mm to 3/8" NPT Thread
-8 AN size line.

[ransomnote23]

Hi all, I have some questions for you auto tranny folks: I have the same transmission cooler setup as Kourt outlines in the start of this thread with a stock VW Auto tranny and a subaru 2.2L motor. The short story is that my transmission is overheating and I don’t seem to be getting fluid to the cooler and am pretty stumped.

Long story is that I started with a cooler setup with the external filter/temp sender, derale thermostat, and a GoWesty style cooler. This worked well for a while, but recently I started seeing temps creep up, and on hill climbs I’d have to pull of and cool down with temps going up to 250+. This roughly coincided with installing slightly larger tires (now I'm thinking this may have been a coincidence) so I figured that the larger motor + larger tires was too much for the GW style cooler and so I installed the derale radiator/fan cooler (derale 13950) hoping to be able to keep my temps down. I have seen no change and still get temps creeping up on long drives and hill climbs and I have never heard the fan come on. On a typical hill climb I will see temps climb up and at 240/250 I pull off for it to cool, crawling underneath I find: no cooler fan running, lines from tranny to filter and filter to thermostat are super hot to the touch, line from thermostat to cooler is hot to the touch, return line from cooler to thermostat is cold, return from thermostat to tranny is super hot.

I tested the fan relay (switch is right in front of cooler) by jumping the switch with a paper-clip and the fan comes on, tested the switch in a pot of boiling water and it works. Cooler was filled with tranny fluid before installing and didn’t appear to have any clogs/restrictions. Since the fan isn’t coming on, it seems that hot fluid isn’t making it to the cooler.

My thoughts are:
1. Possibly too much headloss through new cooler? (but others have this setup with no issues)
2. Air bubbles in the system? Do these typically need to be bled? I was thinking the tranny pump would force fluid through and send the air back to the tranny to vent. Should I bleed somehow?
3. Thermostat may have failed and not be sending fluid through to cooler loop? Anyone had this happen?
4. Transmission pump not pumping fluid? (I’m guessing I’d have other shifting issues if that were the case?)
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks!

Also worth noting, this is not a pristine tranny. Never been rebuilt to my knowledge and leaks pretty good. I have a rebuild on the to-do list, but I’d like to make sure I have a cooler that works before that.
_________________
Crooked Finger Designs | Bend, OR
www.crooked-finger.com |

[kourt]

I think your thermostat may be faulty. Derale sells them individually:

http://derale.com/products/fluid-coolers/thermosta...ome-detail

Tell me more about your RPMs when driving. I ask because higher RPMs mean more ATF flowing. If you have chronically low RPMs (due to habits, engine design, tires, or whatever) your fluid flow will be low.

Remove the t-stat and replace it with couplers as a diagnostic, and tell us how things change. Get an infrared thermometer so that you can read temperatures of individual lines accurately.

kourt

[ransomnote23]

Thanks Kourt!

I'll pull that thermostat this weekend and see what happens. Hopefully i can get my hands on an infrared thermometer too.

As far as RPMs: Typical around town driving is 2.8k - 3.5k, highway is 3.5 -4.5k, on long hill climbs ill drop to around 3.2k or so. If i drop below 3k on a climb I try to force a downshift.
_________________
Crooked Finger Designs | Bend, OR
www.crooked-finger.com |

[kourt]

New content alert: I am rebuilding my automatic differentials this weekend and will be documenting my Peloquin differential installation. I'll post the writeup when I get things sorted out this week. In the meantime, here is a preview of coming attractions:

kourt

[kourt]

It's time for the next step in building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle.

Let's install a Peloquin differential!

Background: the idea behind installing a Peloquin differential is to convert the original open Vanagon differential to an automatic torque biasing differential through the use of a special product, made by Peloquins, which improves the function of the differential in low traction situations.

I won't go into the various benefits of improving this differential, but if you want to start somewhere read the GoWesty page on differentials and then search around The Samba.

Materials

Bentley repair manual
one Peloquin differential, usually sourced from GoWesty (if you call Gary Peloquin he will refer you to them)(the Peloquin is shipped with new bearings)
one dial indicator with magnetic base for measuring backlash
a bench vise (I like this one)
a small press (Harbor Freight)
a small 2-ton 2/3 arm bearing puller (auto parts stores will rent these)
1/2" torque wrench
one Peloquin ATB installation kit (GoWesty) or you can individually source the seals:
090.507.215 differential pan gasket (1)
011.519.345 auto trans axle shaft o-ring (2)
018.409.399 auto trans axle shaft seal (2)
1.25 liters of 75W90 gear oil (Mobil 1 is what I use)
blue loctite

A note about the GoWesty Peloquin ATB installation kit: I bought one of these kits and it was a great deal until I discovered their parts pickers were putting manual transmission o-rings and seals into the kit. They really had this one screwed up. I called them twice and got the correct parts shipped to me, and told them they needed to correct their parts list for the kit. I hope they have figured it out; it's not the first time I've received manual transmission seals from GW in an automatic designated kit.

Installation Overview

Yes, you can install an automatic Peloquin with the transaxle still in the van. If you are comfortable working under the van driven up on ramps, or if you have the benefit of a lift, this job can be done in a few hours without dropping the transaxle.

You will notice in some photos that I am working with an uninstalled transaxle on a bench; I used this spare transaxle to practice my installation, and to take better photos. The final installation was done working under my daily driver van on ramps with the transaxle installed.

This installation assumes the transaxle is already working fine and does not require any repairs.

Understanding Backlash

Backlash, sometimes called lash or play, is a clearance or lost motion in a mechanism caused by gaps between the parts. In the Vanagon automatic transaxle backlash is the play between the ring gear installed on the differential, and the pinion gear which is driven by the transmission. When you drop the differential oil pan and grab the ring gear teeth firmly, you can rock the ring gear in a front/back motion and feel or hear the backlash. It should be perceived as a very subtle knock between two meshing gears.

Counting Turns Won't Work

The classic method for maintaining backlash when disassembling the Vanagon differential is to paint marks on the adjusting rings and count the number of turns required before each adjusting ring comes free of the differential housing. Since new bearings are being used in the Peloquin installation, you cannot rely on this method. Instead, you must become familiar with the bearing preload and gear backlash set method described on page 39.60 of the Bentley. Once you understand the relationship between ring, pinion, and adjusting rings, and how to set preload and measure backlash, the idea of relying on counting turns seems imprecise, inaccurate, and irrelevant to this procedure.

Procedures Checklist

I found it useful to have a checklist of procedures so that I would not overlook a step in this installation.

drive rear wheels on ramps and set parking brake
disconnect CV joints from differential output flanges; bag the ends of the joints and orient them out of your way
remove CV flanges and set aside, noting different lengths for each side
unbolt oil pan and drain gear oil; discard oil--do not reuse
measure backlash using dial indicator; should be 0.15 to 0.25mm (Bentley 39.62) and it's a good idea to check in several positions
remove adjusting nut locks (10mm wrench)
remove adjusting nuts
remove ring gear/differential from housing
place new bearings in oven at 200 degrees F
remove bearings from old differential to expose flats on differential for clamping in bench vise
place old diff in vise and remove ring gear (loosen bolts, tap heads, Bentley 39.56)
clean holes of ring gear of all oil; clean ring gear bolts of all oil (threadlocker requires clean fasteners)
place Peloquin diff in vise and install ring gear with blue threadlocker (torque to 51 ft/lbs)
install new bearings on Peloquin with press
place adjusting rings in vise, tap out old bearing races and shaft seals; remove o-ring
clean the adjusting rings thoroughly
install new bearing races in adjusting rings with press
replace o-rings and seals in adjusting rings
lightly coat o-rings and adjusting ring threads with grease
install Peloquin differential and adjusting nuts in differential housing
set bearing preload and backlash (Bentley 39.60)
check backlash (0.15-0.25mm—or try for same as prior measurement before removal)
install adjusting ring locks
remove gear oil fill plug
replace oil pan gasket/install pan (torque pan bolts to 7 ft/lbs)
replace gear oil (1.25L or 1.3qt)
install oil fill plug
install flanges (torque center bolt to 18 ft/lbs)
connect CV joints (torque CV bolts to 33 ft/lbs)
drive and check with temp gauge

Photos

Conclusion

This job was simpler than I thought. I hope this encourages some of you to maintain your differentials or upgrade them to a Peloquin differential.

kourt

[jwallis]

Wow, really nice work man. I wish I'd been able to help out/learn in Austin when you were working on those trannys. Just put in a bostig up here in dallas the past couple months and may have messed up my tranny in the process. Would love to have a peloquin but realistically I don't go off road much.

Dallas gets colder of course, but I'm surprised with all this talk of concern about overheating transmissions considering the aircoolers don't even have external transmission cooling and some people simply use a sortof air scoop to direct more air to the transmission and call it a day. I guess a lot of these concerned parties are subie/tdi owners.

Aaanywho, I read this whole thread today but missed this - how are you measuring your differential temp? I see you put in a VDO gauge for the tranny temp, right?

I'm concerned I may have f'd my tranny oil pump because while it's working fine, it whines pretty loudly in neutral/reverse and never did that before. If this is the case, I don't think the pump parts are in any rebuild kit.

Oh, lastly, how do people feel about running the transmission cooler too cold? I have the smallcar kit (no thermostat) and now that I see the Derale thermostat, am thinking I should put it in. $50 isn't a bad price. Of course that would suck if IT went bad as it seemed to have for one person (don't rem if it's in this thread or another).
_________________
TheVanTracker.com - Kill Switch + GPS Tracker + Door-open alerts, made specifically for the Vanagon!
50+ YouTube videos - brakes, bearings, CV joints, 1.9/2.1 cooling system, mods, Bostig and more...

[kourt]

Howdy--I've been using a handheld IR thermometer to measure my differential. I keep one of these in the van.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00837ZGRY

kourt

[jwallis]

Ok makes sense, and thanks for the link, didn't know you could get em so cheap. I thought you were getting realtime results while driving.
_________________
TheVanTracker.com - Kill Switch + GPS Tracker + Door-open alerts, made specifically for the Vanagon!
50+ YouTube videos - brakes, bearings, CV joints, 1.9/2.1 cooling system, mods, Bostig and more...

[kourt]

Just an update: I've just completed a 2700 mile trip from Texas to Utah and Wyoming in late November. The Peloquin got a serious trial climbing some mountain roads outside Green River, WY this week.

With my previous differential I would have failed to climb a few snowy/icy roads. I think I got into some places I should not have been--but I had tire chains, an air compressor (to reinflate after deflation) and patience to get back down safely.

kourt

[Mac_Daddy_Westy]

Kourt,

great write up and photos, hope we can meet up upon your return in Austin. I missed you at the Texas Vanagon meet up at the Bus Fest.

go fast slowly, safe travels

Andre

[bubba]

[quote="kourt"]It's time for the next step in building a better Vanagon automatic transaxle.

Let's install a Peloquin differential!

Background: the idea behind installing a Peloquin differential is to convert the original open Vanagon differential to an automatic torque biasing differential through the use of a special product, made by Peloquins, which improves the function of the differential in low traction situations.

I won't go into the various benefits of improving this differential, but if you want to start somewhere read the GoWesty page on differentials and then search around The Samba.

Materials

Bentley repair manual
one Peloquin differential, usually sourced from GoWesty (if you call Gary Peloquin he will refer you to them)(the Peloquin is shipped with new bearings)
one dial indicator with magnetic base for measuring backlash
a bench vise (I like this one)
a small press (Harbor Freight)
a small 2-ton 2/3 arm bearing puller (auto parts stores will rent these)
1/2" torque wrench
one Peloquin ATB installation kit (GoWesty) or you can individually source the seals:
090.507.215 differential pan gasket (1)
011.519.345 auto trans axle shaft o-ring (2)
018.409.399 auto trans axle shaft seal (2)
1.25 liters of 75W90 gear oil (Mobil 1 is what I use)
blue loctite

A note about the GoWesty Peloquin ATB installation kit: I bought one of these kits and it was a great deal until I discovered their parts pickers were putting manual transmission o-rings and seals into the kit. They really had this one screwed up. I called them twice and got the correct parts shipped to me, and told them they needed to correct their parts list for the kit. I hope they have figured it out; it's not the first time I've received manual transmission seals from GW in an automatic designated kit.

Installation Overview

Yes, you can install an automatic Peloquin with the transaxle still in the van. If you are comfortable working under the van driven up on ramps, or if you have the benefit of a lift, this job can be done in a few hours without dropping the transaxle.

You will notice in some photos that I am working with an uninstalled transaxle on a bench; I used this spare transaxle to practice my installation, and to take better photos. The final installation was done working under my daily driver van on ramps with the transaxle installed.

This installation assumes the transaxle is already working fine and does not require any repairs.

Understanding Backlash

Backlash, sometimes called lash or play, is a clearance or lost motion in a mechanism caused by gaps between the parts. In the Vanagon automatic transaxle backlash is the play between the ring gear installed on the differential, and the pinion gear which is driven by the transmission. When you drop the differential oil pan and grab the ring gear teeth firmly, you can rock the ring gear in a front/back motion and feel or hear the backlash. It should be perceived as a very subtle knock between two meshing gears.

Counting Turns Won't Work

The classic method for maintaining backlash when disassembling the Vanagon differential is to paint marks on the adjusting rings and count the number of turns required before each adjusting ring comes free of the differential housing. Since new bearings are being used in the Peloquin installation, you cannot rely on this method. Instead, you must become familiar with the bearing preload and gear backlash set method described on page 39.60 of the Bentley. Once you understand the relationship between ring, pinion, and adjusting rings, and how to set preload and measure backlash, the idea of relying on counting turns seems imprecise, inaccurate, and irrelevant to this procedure.

Procedures Checklist

I found it useful to have a checklist of procedures so that I would not overlook a step in this installation.

drive rear wheels on ramps and set parking brake
disconnect CV joints from differential output flanges; bag the ends of the joints and orient them out of your way
remove CV flanges and set aside, noting different lengths for each side
unbolt oil pan and drain gear oil; discard oil--do not reuse
measure backlash using dial indicator; should be 0.15 to 0.25mm (Bentley 39.62) and it's a good idea to check in several positions
remove adjusting nut locks (10mm wrench)
remove adjusting nuts
remove ring gear/differential from housing
place new bearings in oven at 200 degrees F
remove bearings from old differential to expose flats on differential for clamping in bench vise
place old diff in vise and remove ring gear (loosen bolts, tap heads, Bentley 39.56)
clean holes of ring gear of all oil; clean ring gear bolts of all oil (threadlocker requires clean fasteners)
place Peloquin diff in vise and install ring gear with blue threadlocker (torque to 51 ft/lbs)
install new bearings on Peloquin with press
place adjusting rings in vise, tap out old bearing races and shaft seals; remove o-ring
clean the adjusting rings thoroughly
install new bearing races in adjusting rings with press
replace o-rings and seals in adjusting rings
lightly coat o-rings and adjusting ring threads with grease
install Peloquin differential and adjusting nuts in differential housing
set bearing preload and backlash (Bentley 39.60)
check backlash (0.15-0.25mm—or try for same as prior measurement before removal)
install adjusting ring locks
remove gear oil fill plug
replace oil pan gasket/install pan (torque pan bolts to 7 ft/lbs)
replace gear oil (1.25L or 1.3qt)
install oil fill plug
install flanges (torque center bolt to 18 ft/lbs)
connect CV joints (torque CV bolts to 33 ft/lbs)
drive and check with temp gauge

Did you change the gear ratio on your R&P? if not.. How do you change the pinion gear? does it just slide on and off? It looks key wayed to me..
_________________
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[kourt]

Howdy,

I haven't changed my R&P ratio. I have kept it stock.

I have a big, heavy Westfalia camper with a Bostig conversion. I drive a lot in the mountain west.

The Bostig performs best in the 4k to 5k RPM range. On dozens of trips I have driven it for 12+ hours at that RPM with no problem.

I know from how I want the Bostig to perform that reducing my RPMs would result in a performance loss and I wouldn't want that, so I have kept the stock ratio.

To change the R&P in the Vanagon would require transaxle removal. The process is documented in the Bentley, and it's not too much more involved than the differential exchange.

kourt

[bubba]

K.. I'm installing a Ecotec .. I will check out the rpm range on it..
_________________
***WANTED***
SO-23 Cargo net hooks...
for sale
curtain Bungee cords for SO23, 22, 33 ,34 ,35
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1587591