Re: Major Fail: What am I Looking at?

[mike77777]

What ray said
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patience and putty

[my59]

I added thread pitch to previous post. Go to hardware store, get a bolt and a new key and take the fan off. The og bolt needs a 13 mm socket.
If the bolt is no where to be found, your guy might have simply smeared jb weld on and jammed the fan back on with a key and without a bolt.

The metal shavings might be the fan grinding the shroud as it came off. At this stage, what do you have to loose?
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my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget.

[BillJohnson]

[Wildthings]

The bolt is an 8x1.25 IIRC. Don't know the length. If you want to try to use the old threats, head to an autoparts or a hardware store with a goodly selection of metric studs. Once you have chased the threads in the hole with a tap you can screw a stud in using every last thread until the stud bottoms out in the hole. If you can get four good threads you are golden. You could also use an over length bolt and a stack of washers. Continually adding washers under the head of the bolt until the bolt no longer bottoms out in the hole when snugged, you need to be 100% sure you are not bottoming out when you do your final torque otherwise we will be hearing from you again, this is why I would myself use a stud over using a bolt and washers.

The original washer that goes under the bolt is pretty beefy, it would be best to come up with an OEM washer from somewhere.

[lil-jinx]

You need to remove the fan and the hub,inspect the inside of the hub and the taper on the crank,also check the slot for the key on both the hub and the shaft.If the hub is damaged then you will have to replace it,if the taper is damaged or the key slot is damaged,you may need a new crank shaft.
I can't comment on the mechanic's motives,but at least he did own up to attempting to fix the hub bolt,did he say why he was in that area,if he did not have any part in breaking the bolt,then he should have called before attempting any repair.
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1974 Bay Westfalia. she likes to be called Ethel.
1968 Dune Buggy
1974 parts bus
A smart man learns from his mistakes,a very smart man learns from other's mistakes.

[SGKent]

Do you have any ability to have this bus towed on a flat bed (or backwards with REAR wheels off the ground on a dolly) 120 miles if Mark agreed to look at it? I don't know what the laws are taking it from WA to BC on a trailer.
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[Bleyseng]

I'm in Seattle and could come out Saturday morning to look, PM me
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70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles

[Xevin]

[raygreenwood]

[BillJohnson]

[surfwagonorangevw]

Hi Bill ,
It is amazing and appalling to hear about the incompetence of mechanics who work on our buses . I am happy to see another forum member willing to come over and take a look . The first step in every job is a good inspection to diagnose the problem, then find the right solution . I myself am mechanically inclined so do my own work when necessary , lucky me ( said with a little sarcasm ) With that said carefully inspect the fan for damage , it would suck to get the fan bolted back on and then have it fall apart if it has been weakened from rattling around .
Wildthings wrote -You could also just lower the rear of the engine so that the center line of the fan is below the bumper so as to get a straight shot at the end of the crank. Less work than doing a full engine pull. -
this was my first thought if you need better access, hope you get back on the road soon .

[BillJohnson]

So, Jeff came out this morning to check out the bus. Great guy. Liked him immediately. His assessment: the head of the center bolt was sheared off! He said he's never seen that before. I asked him if it could have happened by over-torquing the bolt. He agreed that could be one possible cause. But the head was not there, so it happened awhile ago. The woodruff key obviously worked itself loose and that is why I have engine oil in the compartment.

His solution would be to drill out the bolt and replace with a new one. He feels you would have to drop the engine to line things up properly.

My mechanic wants me to tow the bus down to his shop on Monday where he proposes to do a compression test, unbolt fan and hub, install new hub WITH JB WELD and a new bolt. After two days drying time (place a trouble lamp next to it to keep it warm), re-install fan. He then said it's possible the crankshaft nose is too damaged for this to work.

I wrote him an email this morning asking him why he used JB weld in the first place and why he is proposing to use it again? I told him I am not comfortable with him using it again.
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1979 Type 2 w/ Weber 40 IDF carbs
2003 Jetta TDI

[SGKent]

good decision.

The easiest solution would have been penetrating oil, and series of left hand drill bits. They may have well heated the remaining bolt enough to unscrew it without damage to the threads.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[airschooled]

Sounds like Geoff is the man for the job!

If he is ok drilling on the ground, you can get a straight shot at the T4 crank snout with a drill by removing the rear center tin and lowing the engine a few inches with the jack. This way, you only remove the four or six bolts that hold the engine carrier bar to the chassis, and the two 15mm carrier bolts above the bell housing. Loosen three turns but do not remove the front nosecone 17mm bolts. This way, you can leave the CVs, foam seal, all cables, all wiring, and all vacuum lines connected. A GOOD low profile floor jack below the engine case with a sheet of wood on it will be more than up to the task. Support the engine carrier bar with blocks of wood if you jack has a tendency to bleed.

This is the closest picture I have of an unrelated operation we did, where the engine had to come down but not out. We didn't need to raise the chassis.

Robbie

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[SGKent]

what about the shift rod - wouldn't you disconnect that?
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Wildthings]

Using JB Weld to fill any gouges in the taper or to tighten up the fit of key would be okay. High spots have to be removed by filing or grinding, you can't just smear JB Weld everywhere and let the hub rest on the high spot. The inside of the hub needs to not have high spots either. There is an o-ring that fits on the engine side of the hub that must be there to prevent oil leaks down the keyway.

Things can look pretty bad and still work okay. I would still be tempted to go with a larger bolt size to get more clamping pressure. At least use a 10.9 or better yet a 12.9 grade bolt. A washer head bolt would be best and as I mentioned before the original washer was very tough and it would be best if you sourced a used one and not depend on a stack of cheap soft washers or brittle hard ones that is all you may be able to find locally.

[airschooled]

[busdaddy]

The big question here is how much has the taper worn?, since the bolt broke off (overtorque?, using it to turn the engine?) the hub may not have spent too much time rubbing against the crank, with any luck the key slot isn't wallowed out much either. But if the taper on the crank is worn a new hub may not be enough to get it to seat before it bottoms out on the step on the crank, in that case I'd consider steel or SS shim stock on the taper before anything that comes in a tube. Sounds like this "mechanic" needs to stick to his V8's and keep his hands off type 4 VW's.

I agree with Robbie on the coupler, a few degrees is well within it's range of movement, they get FUBAR'd when the trans drops loose and the short leverage between the front mount and the shift rod is all that's supporting it.
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[raygreenwood]

Everyone please understand with your suggestions...... The fan hub taper...is a machine taper. It could be a Morse taper, a Brown and Sharpe taper, a Jarno taper or one of several types.

But what they all have one thing in common....is that they are a precison, metal to metal joint that works within the hardness and limited distortion of the metal.
These tapers are not primarily for centering effect although they do that too. When they are knocked together or drawn together like with a bolt in the case of this fan hub....they are "wrung" together.....just like gauge blocks. It creates tons of gripping force.

There is absolutely no place here for JB weld, surface rust, any lubricant of any type other than the very thinnest wipe of the lightest oil to prevent rust. No room for anti-seize or anything. When the taper joint is properly engaged....it is a 100% "0" clearance joint.

Pitting in the surface...as long as none of the pit surroundings are raised and they are small in surface area.....are not a problem. But you cannot fill them with anything...especially not a plastic or epoxy....because that will compress and not wring itself to the other piece oo tapered metal. You would be better off simply leaving any pits ....their missing surface area is not enough to make a difference.....but simply take a diamond needle file or oil stone and carefully remove any raised surface around where any dings are.
Raised surfaces prevent the tapered cone from making surface contact with the inside of the hub.

The bolt....I have had one break off before. If the bolt gets moisture in it and rusts....that will cause this. But once you get it out.....always install a new one with thin anti-sieze and exact torque. Also....I will have to check one of mine to see if it has a grade/class marking....but use tbe highest class you can like 12.9. In this way if a mechanic does the stupid thing like over torque.....usually a 12.9 will not distort like a softer bolt and its easier to get out.

By the way.....your mechanic is as stupid as a house brick. Using any kind of adhesive on a machine taper is just.....really, really, really, stupid....and is a 100% fail waiting to happen.
Ray

[redxxrdr]

Fastenal,
And other machine tool stores carry reverse rotation drill bits.
They are not cheap, but they are high quality.

Reverse rotation means that the bit is trying to unscrew the broken part, while drilling the hole.
Start with a small bit size, and work your way up. Worse case, you have a pilot hole for a screw extractor.

If this were mine, I would look for a machine shop with a large, floor mount drill press.
Pull the engine, and have them drill it out.
You only have a couple chances to do this without a rebuild.
Remove and replace the broken screw, or go oversized.

Drill alignment is important. Why not pay a little more, and get the best tools and experience available.
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