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Sharp64
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Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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 Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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Perhaps a stupid question but wouldn’t simply taking out the grub screw from one of the tubes essentially do the same as putting a bar in? I’m assuming when replacing one of the spring packs with a bar the center grub screw is left out right? Or am I missing something?
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1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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oprn
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Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| Now that would be way too simple, there must be a catch! |
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rugblaster
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Joined: March 31, 2016
Posts: 1171
Location: San Angelo, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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That is a somewhat dumb question. That grub screw just holds the torsion bar pack from moving laterally in the beam tube. There is a internal locating anchor point in the center of the beam to hold the center of the torsion bars from moving radially.
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Sharp64
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Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:12 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| rugblaster wrote: |
| That is a somewhat dumb question. That grub screw just holds the torsion bar pack from moving laterally in the beam tube. There is a internal locating anchor point in the center of the beam to hold the center of the torsion bars from moving radially. |
Ok then, how does replacing the spring with a solid bar soften the suspension? Seems to me like putting a solid bar in place of something that has spring would have the opposite effect.. What am I missing?
Edit* I think I got it now. They are using round bar stock with square ends so the center sections rotates correct? I missed that part.
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine
Last edited by Sharp64 on Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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oprn
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Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:17 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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Not so dumb perhaps if you have never had the leaves out and seen how it works.
Next question that comes to mind then is "What locates the F/vee sway bar laterally when used as a replacement for a set of leaves?" Or those of you that have used square bar stock for that matter. |
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Sharp64
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Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| oprn wrote: |
Not so dumb perhaps if you have never had the leaves out and seen how it works.
Next question that comes to mind then is "What locates the F/vee sway bar laterally when used as a replacement for a set of leaves?" Or those of you that have used square bar stock for that matter. |
In the center of the beam there is a piece that keeps the spring pack from rotating. Think of a large internal welded washer with a square hole through the center that the square spring pack sits in. I forgot about this. In an adjustable beam this piece moves.
With that said, if you used an adjustable beam, could you just leave out one of the center grub screws? That would allow one spring pack to move freely while having the other under tension correct?
The FV through rods are round so they move inside the locator or whatever it is in the center of the beam, thus the reason for welding on the square ends.
Correct?
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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vponder
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Joined: August 17, 2013
Posts: 289
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| I spoke to the guy from the link that was listed he is retired but seeing if he could get me one, he said that they were about 70.00 . I also googled it and found another source . |
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Q-Dog
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Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:02 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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The FV sway bar also uses aluminum spacers in place of the rubber seals where the arms go into the torsion tubes, to keep the arms from moving under a side load.
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'69 Dune Buggy
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GS guy
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Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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Leaving the center beam grub screw "out" only lets the springs move side to side, that section in the middle of the torsion tubes is welded in, so it can't rotate. If you have a height adjustable beam, then that's a different situation.
As Q-dog stated, solid metal spacers replace the torsion tube end seals, and the adjusting screw on the outside of one end of the sway bar is "cinched up", pulling the trailing arms against the spacers to allow rotation with minimal end play. The sway bar rotates inside the OEM center anchor block - hence the need for it to be round, at least in the center portion. I've read of some folks replacing the leaves in the other tube with the HD Sway-a-Way springs to make up for the lack of springs in the "un-sprung" tube.
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vponder
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Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| Thanks for the insight on this subject lots of good info. so I guess if I get the FV bar and need to see if they carry the end bushing to Im glad that it was brought up I would have never known it, My mechanic that does my work above my pay grade I dont think had evered used one, he did say that he had used a rod or something when he was younger on a drag car or something. |
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slalombuggy
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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When I built my beam from a stock beam I cut the center section out where the anchor, pressed out the anchor and welded the tube back in. You don't need to do this with the FV bars as they are small enough to go through the anchor.
brad |
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vponder
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Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| slalombuggy wrote: |
When I built my beam from a stock beam I cut the center section out where the anchor, pressed out the anchor and welded the tube back in. You don't need to do this with the FV bars as they are small enough to go through the anchor. I sent you a PM (I think)
brad |
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oprn
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Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| slalombuggy wrote: |
When I built my beam from a stock beam I cut the center section out where the anchor, pressed out the anchor and welded the tube back in. You don't need to do this with the FV bars as they are small enough to go through the anchor.
brad |
Right, now what do you do to keep everything from moving laterally? |
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vponder
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| Well the guy Jim got back with me on a email and said that he cant get the bar anymore that his fab guy is not making them anymore, he did give me another guy which is the other source I had already found and book marked. He offered me to call him when setting up the spacers he said that it was important so the suspension wouldnt bind . Thought that was nice of him to offer. |
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slalombuggy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| oprn wrote: |
| slalombuggy wrote: |
When I built my beam from a stock beam I cut the center section out where the anchor, pressed out the anchor and welded the tube back in. You don't need to do this with the FV bars as they are small enough to go through the anchor.
brad |
Right, now what do you do to keep everything from moving laterally? |
Like the guys above posted, replace the torsion seals with aluminum spacers. I also used Formula Vee offset link pin bushing to get negative camber in the front wheels. I have about -1* of camber and the car turns like a go cart. 
brad |
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vponder
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Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:02 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| Well I got my buggy back from the mechanic yesterday, I had decided to put my old beam back on but with the new spindles that came on the "rebuilt" beam. It rides good now, while doing this he reamed the link pins I think is the right part, he felt the steering was to tight ( it was). So now its steering really nice I can steer with one hand. I also got to get the left front tire re balanced buggy still has a shake in it. He noticed then the brakes where backed off he spun the tire and it would come to rest with the weights at the 6 oclock postion. I told him that I saw the machine and it zero out when finished spinning the tire after the weights were added. Who knows it 's after market stock five wides that I got from CIP1. But at least I got that Low Rider stiffness out of it. Also my old beam had some pretty nice thick tabs welded on it for a tow bar glad to get that back for a future custom tow bar. |
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cdnltded
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Joined: March 13, 2015
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Location: Pincher Creek, Alberta
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| slalombuggy wrote: |
When I built my beam from a stock beam I cut the center section out where the anchor, pressed out the anchor and welded the tube back in. You don't need to do this with the FV bars as they are small enough to go through the anchor.
brad |
Brad
so from your experience i should be able to leave a stock pack in either tube and install a square rod in the other, this will soften the ride and possibly lower the front some.
i was thinking of just getting my machinest buddy to turn the center down so it would rotate in the middle mount.
sounds like it might work.
it that or remove 2 more leafs from each pack |
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slalombuggy
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| cdnltded wrote: |
| slalombuggy wrote: |
When I built my beam from a stock beam I cut the center section out where the anchor, pressed out the anchor and welded the tube back in. You don't need to do this with the FV bars as they are small enough to go through the anchor.
brad |
Brad
so from your experience i should be able to leave a stock pack in either tube and install a square rod in the other, this will soften the ride and possibly lower the front some.
i was thinking of just getting my machinest buddy to turn the center down so it would rotate in the middle mount.
sounds like it might work.
it that or remove 2 more leafs from each pack |
Yes I would just use one pack of springs it both lowers the car a bit and softens the ride. The squares in the trailing arms are a bit smaller than 19mm so yur buddy would have to machine dwn the entire length of the bar to push it through the center. It would be much easier to get the holder out of the beam and just grind down the ends. I would put the adjuster and springs in the bottom beam as its the easiest to get to. On my race buggy project though I put it in the top beam to protect it from salt intrusion. The springs in that beam are incredibly stiff as it is only 24.5 inches from grub screw to grub screw.
brad |
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cdnltded
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Location: Pincher Creek, Alberta
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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| slalombuggy wrote: |
Yes I would just use one pack of springs it both lowers the car a bit and softens the ride. The squares in the trailing arms are a bit smaller than 19mm so yur buddy would have to machine dwn the entire length of the bar to push it through the center. It would be much easier to get the holder out of the beam and just grind down the ends. I would put the adjuster and springs in the bottom beam as its the easiest to get to. On my race buggy project though I put it in the top beam to protect it from salt intrusion. The springs in that beam are incredibly stiff as it is only 24.5 inches from grub screw to grub screw.
brad |
and you mentioned something about using aluminum spacers.
do you have a close up picture of that? |
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TC/TeamEvil
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Joined: February 16, 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Buggy Suspension |
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I have a silly question about all of this. We're building an extremely budget conscious Mini-T, honestly it's being built out of table scraps and old spare parts.
With this in mind I was wondering if I could cheap out by remove all of the leaves in the lower torsion bar, pick up a threaded rod with a small enough diameter that it would pass through the center internal section of the torsion housing, and then pop the plastic caps off of the torsion arms, fit them back in place with the rods poking out through the square holes, put on an appropriately sized washer and just use Ny-lok nuts and thread locker to tighten everything back up.
The arms would move freely and independently in the bushings and not be connected torsionally to each other, the rod and lock nuts would serve to keep the arms in the tube, and the upper torsion leaves would remain as-is and do their normal job. Some stock VW shocks to finish things up and . . . well . . . seems like really cheap way out of a too stiff ride quality.
I know that this idea is just totally Hillbilly, and it IS the steering/suspension end of an already sketchy vehicle, and is pretty much the only thing responsible for keeping me and other motorists and pedestrians safe and sound, so why not go low budget with a possible bad idea, right ?
Wondering if this idea would work and not kill me or others?
Thanks— |
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