Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Different camshaft -73 and on?
Forum Index -> 411/412 Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Lars S
Samba Member


Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 511
Location: Sweden
Lars S is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:21 am    Post subject: Different camshaft -73 and on? Reply with quote

According to the leaflet "Product changes" from 1973 describing the new 412 a new camshaft was introduced (see bottom in pic below).
I have read that all D-jet cams on the Type4 were the same (also the 914 2.0), is there new part no on the '73 camshaft?
Did the L-jet and carb 411/412's have different cams?


/Lars S



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver Smile
VW411 2-d -70, White, restoring...will be selling
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, in archive
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold Sad
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, in archive
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 13461
Location: Des moines Iowa
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject: Re: Different camshaft -73 and on? Reply with quote

There is just not any way to know from part #s alone.....although that is the first factory based literature that states this that I have seen. I have always wondered due to what I consider fairly drastic performance differences in the 1.8l from the 1.7L .....that in my opinion....struggle to just be explained by a drop in compression (though it was significant) and a different injection type and a change in advance and timing. I say that....because even when you take the basic L-jet engine back in the day.....increase compression and re-time it.....it still did not put out as much HP anx TQ as it could have for being 100cc larger. And even though L-jet is not quite as adjustable as D-jet.....its not a poor injection system. The cam has always been suspect.

The problem with verifying this.....is still this....from the first few lines of the literature.....it is describing the differences in the 411 and 412 in general.....and not specifically the differences in D-jet and L-jet engines.
At least in the USA ......any type 4 after August of 1972.....was a 412. And....for at least until August of 1973.....they all still had D-jet. Somewhere in the middle of the year....and I will dig through the parts book to find out when....all of the D-jet changed to the round paper element air cleaner that was specific to D-jet. The L-jet had a large square paper element air cleaner.
My car is a November of 1972 two door.....and tourist vehicle and came from the factory with a round pleated air cleaner.

I am wondering.....if what they are refering to was the difference in the early camshaft. The early camshaft was 411 only and listed as "V" code:
Inlet opens: 4 BTDC
Inlet closes: 39 ABDC
Exhaust opens: 40 BBDC
Exhaust closes: 3 ATDC

The later "Z" code camshaft:
Inlet opens: 12 BTDC
Inlet closes: 42 ABDC
Exhaust opens: 43 BBDC
Exhaust closes: 4 ATDC

I believe this change is what they are speaking of.....and this change DOES make for smoother idle. I say that with at least one vote of confidence.... because the early "V" code camshaft......which according to factory notes also probably affected some of the late 411 shipped to the US.....is the camshaft that the Web #73 is based on (and therefore to some extent the Raby 9550 and 9590 cams).....and the characteristic that is the only minor complaint of the Web #73....is that it is a little rougher in idle quality ...and rough is a poor word.....and is a little touchier to tune with due to vacuum signature changes.

But in reality....since there must be from everything I have seen....a difference in the cams that came in the bus....its still not clear to me that there was NOT a further different cam that may have come with L-jet cars in 1974.

The engine I am working on right now is a 1974 1.8L. He is installing a Web #73....but has an NOS 1.8L camshaft. I am going to hopefully get a chance to install that in an empty case and map it. Over the next two months.....I hope to get a chance to map an actual cam part numbered to a 1.8L 412/914, a web #73 and my Raby 9550. If I can find someone to loan me an actual 1.7L cam from a D-jet 411/412/914......I can map them all to not only valve opening points on intake....but also correlate them to injection contact event and valve position.

So call that a request please.....if anyone in the US has a camshaft they know came out of a 1.7L from a 411/412....and you know its original.....and can loan it to me and I will get it back to you.....we can finally get a map of what there was.
At some point it would be nice to map a cam from a known early 411...so we can see the differences in V and Z codes.
Knowing all of this...since we kind of know how V and Z codes perform on stock engines....it can help us as a group...understand what we can and cannot get away with in future modified camshafts. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dawie
Samba Member


Joined: July 27, 2008
Posts: 186
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
dawie is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:12 am    Post subject: Re: Different camshaft -73 and on? Reply with quote

Cam timing at standard 1mm lift changed to:
IO: 9 degs
IC: 41 degs.
Same cam was also used by the German spec 412LS (Twin 40PDSIT, 30mm venturies, 8.6:1 comp, 85hp).

The "V" cam was never used in a fuel injection engine. This cam, (IO-4deg, IC-39deg), was continued in "rest of the world" basic spec 412 models, which continued to be sold outside North America (alongside the more expensive LE/LS spec models), until end of 412 production.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 13461
Location: Des moines Iowa
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Different camshaft -73 and on? Reply with quote

dawie wrote:
Cam timing at standard 1mm lift changed to:
IO: 9 degs
IC: 41 degs.
Same cam was also used by the German spec 412LS (Twin 40PDSIT, 30mm venturies, 8.6:1 comp, 85hp).

The "V" cam was never used in a fuel injection engine. This cam, (IO-4deg, IC-39deg), was continued in "rest of the world" basic spec 412 models, which continued to be sold outside North America (alongside the more expensive LE/LS spec models), until end of 412 production.


Great info! I agree...the early V cam was not the primary injected engine cam....my real question is....for what exact period of time and what markets was it true? The 411 and 412 had at least 6 distinct markets.

Reason I ask.....is that the upgraded cam you noted (9 and 41) makes sense as the one used in the high compression twin carb, UK version of the 1.8L. I have only found limited info on this cam in books and I have never seen one.

However the V-cam as you note (4 and 39) while its true was primarily used for the first carbed 411's and most of the carbed 1.7L of Europe....which was the primary European type 4 vehicle from about 68 to 70.....did also appear here in the US in the first few months of 1971 year model imports....with D-jet fuel injection.
The 1971 import was an odd year carrying over Europe only styling and details....but "US-ised".

One could say and I always state this....is that the V-series cam is the carburetor cam.

The interesting part about the V series cam is that its inlet valve timing and lobe center is close enough to the later Z series cam that is ran "well" with the injection. Not perfect....but well.....and not as good with an automatic transmission which was the primary transmission that almost all US type 4 came with.

The Z series later cam seemed to have a smoother vacuum pulse and was easier to tune. But....it also ran a little hotter. One might say it was a smog cam. The overlap of the early V cam helped get the gases out of the heads a little better.

This is probably why Web Cam based the Web #73 on the valve timing of the early cam. Timing was good enough to work with stock injection but with more overlap. The Raby 9550....is version of the Web #73 with a split pattern with a,little more exhaust duration. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> 411/412 All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2016, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB