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1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback-Alive again!
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EasternNotch
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback-Alive again! Reply with quote

Hey all-

I just acquired this very original low mile fastback which is currently not running.

I have known the car and previous owner for some time and was very surprised to see he was selling it. I was not in the market for another car having bought my t34 earlier this year as well as replacing the tdi in my Doka. When the PO texted me and said he was thinking of selling I didn't even make an offer on the car thinking it would just be way out of reach for me at this time(plus not running FI was another factor)

The PO had battled the FI for over a year and had a mechanic familiar with 914 type 4 FI(supposedly). He and the mechanic had done quite a bit of work on the car fuel tank cleaned, vac lines , distributor rebuild , new injectors.. I do not recall the timeline of what was done by whom and when.

I fully intend to keep this car injected. Yes it would probably be easier for me to swap it to carburetors ,but I do not want to go that route at all. Even though I am very familiar with carbed type 3's and FI is a whole new realm for me.

I have to start with basics timing, basic ignition parts checks then move forward. Going to need to research a lot and bounce questions off the knowledgeable FI people on here

This car has not run in over a year (I believe) the PO warmed it up started backing down his driveway it stalled and has not run since. It cranks over but doesn't seem to even try to fire. Battery was tested and is nice and strong.

here are a few pix : I will put up more as I being to sort through things.

Lucas


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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- [Currently not running] Reply with quote

That's a very nice looking Fastback. I always did like the earlier style Fastback (wanted a 69, and bought a 70 because I couldn't find a 69 back then).

What I'd probably do, is remove the elbow and air cleaner from the IAD (Intake Air Distributor) and give it a shot a starting fluid (or as Tram calls it "Satan fluid"), and see if it'll fire up. If it does, it's fuel related. If it doesn't, it's ignition related (probably a condensor).

This should help narrow your starting point. I only say that, as fuel related issues can run quite a bit of checks, from fuel pressure, to ECU issues.
Report back what you find. I hope this helps.
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260KMN
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- [Currently not running] Reply with quote

Thats real nice.
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EasternNotch
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- [Currently not running] Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
That's a very nice looking Fastback. I always did like the earlier style Fastback (wanted a 69, and bought a 70 because I couldn't find a 69 back then).

What I'd probably do, is remove the elbow and air cleaner from the IAD (Intake Air Distributor) and give it a shot a starting fluid (or as Tram calls it "Satan fluid"), and see if it'll fire up. If it does, it's fuel related. If it doesn't, it's ignition related (probably a condensor).

This should help narrow your starting point. I only say that, as fuel related issues can run quite a bit of checks, from fuel pressure, to ECU issues.
Report back what you find. I hope this helps.



Thanks Bob- I'll pick up some "Satan fluid" this week and let you know.
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EasternNotch
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:19 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- [Currently not running] Reply with quote

Small update:

I was finally able to start checking out the fastback, has been damn cold here and where I sore the car is a nice spacious garage but unheated. ok enough excuses


- I started with some basic ignition checks and found the PO had installed a Petronix unit and it was toast. I replaced it with points and condenser (car has the correct 205 L distributor.

-Replaced cap and rotor gaped ignition points

- Static timed it at 0 TDC

- Went though just wiggling and removing reconnecting connections at injectors, TVS (which seems a little oily perhaps connector had a shimmer to it but don't think this is causing the car not to start) trigger points. CHT has two connectors which could be suspect but honestly look like they were done properly with good connectors.

- MPS appears un-altered i tested via suck test and it holds. I do not have a mityvac or any vac guage

The car now sputters and tries to start but just doesn't catch. It seems really close to starting but won't. I have tried cycling the key to see if it makes a difference but does not. I hear audible FI relays but have not actually put my VOM on them

I hope to get back tot he car tomorrow morning:

-I plan to test CHT ohms. will just a cold temp reading help?
-set valves which I should have done to begin with

I made a fuel pressure gauge but is it possible to test the pressure without the car running? Do I need to force the pump to run for this?

-Lucas
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- [Currently not running] Reply with quote

EasternNotch wrote:

I made a fuel pressure gauge but is it possible to test the pressure without the car running? Do I need to force the pump to run for this?
-Lucas


Yes, turn the ignition on, and then add a temporary ground wire to the T1 connector at the left side of the engine bay forward of the 3-4 intake runners. I jamb a paperclip in there to make contact. As long as that wire (#19) is grounded, and the ignition on, the pump will run continuously. You can set the pressure regulator to dial in 28-29 psi this way.
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EasternNotch
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- [Currently not running] Reply with quote

Thanks Phil- I'll get this a try and make sure it's within range
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- [Currently not running] Reply with quote

Buy a $5 Remote Starter Button at Harbor Freight. Get some extra alligator clips for extensions to make it easier to clip it onto the starter contact. Squeeze an alligator clip in your vice to flatten the round end & break the plastic insulator off of it for an 'electrical extension piece'. Now you can test your fuel pressure/timing/injector spray patterns etc working alone! Cool Twist the loose distributor a little while turning it over with the Button & if might just fire up. Did you drag a dollar bill/business card etc through your trigger points contacts to clean them?
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EasternNotch
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- [Currently not running] Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
Buy a $5 Remote Starter Button at Harbor Freight. Get some extra alligator clips for extensions to make it easier to clip it onto the starter contact. Squeeze an alligator clip in your vice to flatten the round end & break the plastic insulator off of it for an 'electrical extension piece'. Now you can test your fuel pressure/timing/injector spray patterns etc working alone! Cool Twist the loose distributor a little while turning it over with the Button & if might just fire up. Did you drag a dollar bill/business card etc through your trigger points contacts to clean them?


I actually made a remote starter years ago and can't find it now- my take a trip to HF and buy the one they sell.

No I have not touched the trigger points- Will do that for sure thanks for the tip.

PO had the distributor rebuilt last year when a "FI guy" here in MA who appears to specialize in Porsche and has good rapport with some local guys did a lot of work for him. Unfortunately his mechanic had someone he knew to rebuild it and would not touch it when the PO offered to send it to Jim Adney.

Tons of work was done to the FI system on the car in past year year and a half but I must double check it all now because she doesn't run.

list of recent work performed according to receipts:

- Tank was pulled cleaned and re-installed not lined or coated from what I can see.
-Fuel pump rebuilt (suspect to me and need to test)
- Rebuilt AAR ( not even sure what this entails)
- CHT replaced
-rebuilt distributor
- intake runner seals due to leaking
- injectors replaced
-oil cooler seals
-Oil cooler sent out for ultrasonic cleaning
-4 pin connector at fuel press. reg had loose connectors
-vac/fuel lines replaced

Seems like the PO paid these guys a lot of $$ in the past year or so. PO told me that car ran well, backed it out of his garge one day after all this work and $ had been paid and it died at the end of his driveway and hasn't run since.

Basically I plan to go through most of this stuff again.
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- [Currently not running] Reply with quote

If Jim rebuild the distributor, it's probably fine. I'd double check the plug wires though, just to cross it off your list.
The fuel pump is probably, more than likely suspect. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, give it shot of "satan fluid", and see if it runs. If it does, then you know the pump isn't doing it's job. You can also add a home made fuel pressure gauge set up to check for fuel pressure as well.
With everything that's been replaced/rebuilt, that thing should run. About the only things that can cause a "no fire", are no spark (I think you said you replaced the pertronix unit), or no fuel, or a bad CHT sensor. At this point, I'd try the "satan" fluid trick. Then I'd move on to the CHT sensor. See if you get any kind of an ohm reading. In this kind of weather, it'll probably be in the 3K ohm range due to outside air temps being cold. I only mention it, as the engine won't start if there's no ohms reading from it.
I hope this helps.
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
mark tucker wrote:
dont the youthinasisa make all our vw stuff? Shocked
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- [Currently not running] Reply with quote

EasternNotch wrote:

list of recent work performed according to receipts:

-4 pin connector at fuel press. reg had loose connectors


Hmmm, there is no electrical connection on the fuel pressure regulator; it's simply a mechanical spring valve. He must have meant the Manifold Pressure Sensor (MPS).

So good idea to check any work already done!


Last edited by KTPhil on Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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EasternNotch
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- [Currently not running] Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
If Jim rebuild the distributor, it's probably fine. I'd double check the plug wires though, just to cross it off your list.


I guess the PO's mechanic had a trusted re-builder and would not work on it if sent out to anyone else so it was not Jim's work, so it still maybe suspect.


Bobnotch wrote:

The fuel pump is probably, more than likely suspect. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, give it shot of "satan fluid", and see if it runs. If it does, then you know the pump isn't doing it's job. You can also add a home made fuel pressure gauge set up to check for fuel pressure as well.


I forgot to mention I did end up giving it some starting fluid after points and condenser replacement and it stumbled over and almost ran for a second. Now without and 'Satan fluid' it is trying to start but just won't seem to catch if you know what I mean. Not like its sort of running then just stalls- does not get that close. I really don't like using that stuff and maybe didn't put in enough because the plenum and runners are a new thing for me- with carbs I can just give it a tiny spray and know its enough.

I made a fuel pressure gauge from instructions in previous posts (5/16 hose, McMaster-Carr 2.5 bar SS guage ) I just haven't had a chance to go test it out. Picked up a new bump starter today to help me out with testing.

I am getting spark but need to test each wire to be 100% sure. The wires are new looking Bosch 7mm.

Do I check the wires with the connectors on them or unscrew them? I know this resistance varies by wire length but what is a good range ?


Bobnotch wrote:

Then I'd move on to the CHT sensor. See if you get any kind of an ohm reading. In this kind of weather, it'll probably be in the 3K ohm range due to outside air temps being cold. I only mention it, as the engine won't start if there's no ohms reading from it.
I hope this helps.


I am going to do this tomorrow when the temps get back up into the 40's here.


KTPhil wrote:
EasternNotch wrote:
[
list of recent work performed according to receipts:

-4 pin connector at fuel press. reg had loose connectors


Hmmm, there is no electrical connection on the fuel pressure regulator; it's simply a mechanical spring valve. He must have meant the Manifold Pressure Sensor (MPS).

So good idea to check any work already done!


Yeah my thoughts exactly Phil


Thanks for the help Bob and Phil

I will check wires, CHT and then test the pump & get a reading on the fuel pressure.


-Lucas
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- [Currently not running] Reply with quote

Nice looking Fasty! Rooting for you to get it sorted out so you can enjoy that nice ride. Good luck!!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- [Currently not running] Reply with quote

Yes, check the wires end to end, as the resistor in the end can go bad (burn thru). Also check their orientation too.

You probably didn't give it a long enough shot of "satan" fluid. It needs a little more than you'd shoot at each carb (maybe the same if you added both carbs together).

Ok, give us a reading on the CHT. Just remember it'll be high, as it's base temp is 72*F, (about 2100 ohms) and as the outside air temp drops, the resistance goes up. The big thing is to see IF you're getting a resistance reading. If you're not, then the sensor is kaput, or there's a break in the wire.
Also, definitely see if you're getting any fuel pressure.
I hope this helps.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
mark tucker wrote:
dont the youthinasisa make all our vw stuff? Shocked
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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EasternNotch
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- It's alive! Reply with quote

Update

I was able to spend some time on the fastback this AM. Finnaly got my fule pressure gauge on the port and lo and behold 24lbs was the reading. I cranked the pressure regulater back and she fired right up.
I set the ignition timing and she purred away.


So stoked right now!!

-Lucas
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:35 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- It's alive! Reply with quote

So here's the confusing part

Over the winter I swapped the ECU without going thought all other checks first. The car came with a reman unit and PO thought it was the issue so I took 20 minutes and swapped it. The car would then stumble and almost start but not quite.

CHT ohm test was good, I had solid spark and was convinced now it was the fuel pump. I ordered the Airtex unit everyone runs. Then winter hung on way too long and I didn't get back to the car until yesterday.

I had made a fuel pressure gauge last winter but the car was in storage with some other pricey cars in a friend's garage so I wanted to wait till I could roll it outside before messing with fuel. I got the gauge on the port and the pressure was low. I adjusted the regulator which took about 4 full turns out to get the car to run.

Airtex-

I jacked up the front of the car and the pump and lines were brand new and I decided to wait. The car is running great!


Supposedly this car ran great, PO went to go for a ride last Summer got to then end of his driveway and it stalled and did not run again until yesterday. If this is true how could the fuel pressure be that far out of wack suddenly?

Did the Ecu swap have any effect?
really wish I had done pressure test first so I could know pin it down. Live and learn I guess.

Idle seems a bit high but I really need to re-check valves set timing and go from there. I was just so thrilled to get it running easily that I did not futz with it much.

Question about fuel pressure reading

Once running the McMaster-Carr gauge I bought is not at 28lbs should it be?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- It's alive! Reply with quote

That's a gorgeous looking Fastback! Looks like you really scored there. Have fun!!!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- It's alive! Reply with quote

You're looking for 28-30 psi. My 71 Notch ran best at 29 psi, while my wife's 70 Fastback likes 28.5 psi. As long as you're between 28-32 psi with no fluctuations of the needle on the gauge, you're fine. The closer to 28 the better, as long as it's above 28. Below 28 it'll run rough AND rich.
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
mark tucker wrote:
dont the youthinasisa make all our vw stuff? Shocked
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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EasternNotch
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- It's alive! Reply with quote

aeroFlutter wrote:
That's a gorgeous looking Fastback! Looks like you really scored there. Have fun!!!



Thanks Man I drove it to work today and was smiling ear to ear. After a long winter here and crappy Spring it was nice to get back on the road in a VW.



You're looking for 28-30 psi. My 71 Notch ran best at 29 psi, while my wife's 70 Fastback likes 28.5 psi. As long as you're between 28-32 psi with no fluctuations of the needle on the gauge, you're fine. The closer to 28 the better, as long as it's above 28. Below 28 it'll run rough AND rich.[/quote]

I appreciate it Bob, I will triple check the pressure to get it close. Seems a tad rich at the moment but is pretty smooth running.



-Lucas
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 L 620 Savannah beige Fastback- It's alive! Reply with quote

I drove the fastback to work today about 14 miles slow bumper to bumper traffic.


Car ran fine no issues at all. At lunch time I got on the highway briefly and his 65-70 but felt a bit sluggish doing so..then a couple small bucks which got worse till I exited about 4 miles of highway. The Car was sputtering and seemed to be starving of fuel. I nursed it to the spot I was going for lunch and about 45 min later I drove back to work but did not take the highway. The car was fine unless I really got on the gas it would buck a little.

Fast forward about 45 minutes when I decided to leave early for the day and drove home and the car bucked here and there and ran ok at other times.

I have not been able to recheck fuel pressure yet but I think that the pump is giving up and when it gets warm it has less pressure? I want to re-check when cold in AM then drive it and recheck the pressure. I have Airtex pump and probably should just swap it out now.
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