Flywheel Thrust Washer Land Collapsed

[tmart]

So this was a crappy surprise. I couldn't show any endplay at the flywheel so I took it back off.

It turns out that when I torqued it on, the thrust washer had dropped slightly. I never would've noticed, but I just saw the Boston Bob flywheel vid and thought that might've been my issue. Now the wall is collapsed.

Anyone have experience with this? So far I've just kind of been scraping at it with a file, pick tool, screwdriver, etc. I started off trying to push the edge back but that's a pipe dream so now I figured I'd try to file it away.
_________________
1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built

[tmart]

This is what I did. I dremeled away the collapsed part:

(The black goo at top and bottom is some Reinzosil I covered the oil channels with. That way I can just pull those out when they've dried and they'll keep any metal shavings out of the case.)

The thing is, I think this just created a new problem. While the thrust washer fits now, I didn't realize the collapsed part wasn't all in the way. So when I removed that material, it made the thrust washer slot out of round. I tried moving it around but it does have to slide over a small piece that's still in there to move out of line. I'm considering putting some JB Weld in there and then regrinding that to better fit the washer. I could also maybe just weld in the thrust washer?

Here's how it looks now:

On a side note, can anyone explain the design of the thrust washers? What are the grooves cut in there for?
_________________
1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built

[DanHoug]

when the thrust washer had dropped, could you rotate the FW at all? or did you just try end play?

i'm wondering if on the engines that have a dropped thrust washer, if they can actually run normally for a while... anyone know how long?

-dan

[djkeev]

VW thrust washers have a magic number of 3 .....

Three thrust washers are used, not two, not four. As I understand it three will not only keep end play in spec but also are able to lube themselves adequately while spinning.

I don't have a clear minds eye of what you are showing as damaged in the photo. I can't recall in my mind an image of an unmolested thrust washer area. I'm not home to browse my Bentley either.

I'm guessing it is the mashed area right above the black case seam sealer in the lower part of the photo.....

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[crazyvwvanman]

The 3 variable thickness shims are not the thrust washer. The thrust washer is much thicker and only 1 size. He should get a replacement if his got deformed and it surely did.

The same thing happened to a friend of mine when he replaced the seal as part of a clutch job. We dealt with it by using a dremel to remove the mashed aluminum of the case and replacing the washer. It is still working afaik.

Mark

[djkeev]

Helpful link

http://haysvwrepair.com/setting-the-end-play-inclu...er-engine/

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[tmart]

Ya, I dremeled away that part of the case and the thrust washer does fit now. I am planning on getting a new thrust washer because this one is done for. My concern now is that the case doesn't hug the thrust washer in place, at least not that well. I'm going to put a couple of JB weld dabs in there this morning and then dremel them into shape when I get a fresh thrust washer to mockup with.

Dan - The flywheel rotated just fine. I actually think the engine would probably run alright too because the aluminum is probably soft enough that it would create the clearance needed upon expansion. A problem I see with that though is the washer and shimes would be at a slight angle so the flywheel would be have a really small thrust surface and probably mess something up that way. Either way, not something I'd risk.

Dave - The collapsed part is this bottom portion here:

It's collapsed into the area where the thrust washer (the tabbed one) is supposed to seat. This keeps it from seating properly and consumes all the space left for endplay. The next photo showed that dremeled away, and the last showed how the thrust washer fit in the newly dremeled case.
_________________
1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built

[Abscate]

Not much to lose at this point

If its an auto trans, the flywheel isn't getting banged by clutch action and it has a better Chance of staying together

Drive it with level one situational awareness for new noises, and pull the engine and get thee to a machinist if that happens
_________________
.ssS!

[mbwesty]

@tmart, bummer, that happened to me couple years ago as I was rebuilding the tranny...I used a dentist pick and worked on it very diligently. It sucked! 5 yrs later still good though...good luck!

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[Wildthings]

I would think trying to cut the piece free with a utility knife combined with some prising with a dental hook would be the way to go.

[jberger]

If your endplay was set correctly, then you pinched the thrust washer upon reassembly the crank would lock up tight. You can feel it happening as the flywheel is being torqued down. Just be sure to recheck your endplay when all back together.

As far as worrying about JB weld tabs... I'd just let it go. The Thrust washer wobbles around just a bit in the case recess anyway. Safe to say it will find its own center as the crank rotates. Flywheel shims however will actually cut the end of the crank off if they are too large and allowed to wobble. That really only happens if you mix up 6v and 12v type 1 shims..

[tmart]

Hmm, wish I'd read some of this advice sooner. I wasn't sure how much room the thrust washer had in there when things were installed properly. I've already put down some JB Weld:

Problem is, it's a little squishy. Turns out I put JB Kwik, which I've read elsewhere doesn't harden as much as the standard stuff. So I'll be dremeling that out later today.

I 'm still unsure of leaving the thrust washer like that without anything underneath to hold it in place. I guess my concern stems from my lack of knowledge about how things operate here. Here's my thinking though. If the crankshaft slides to the flywheel side, there's some clearance at the shims/washer. If that clearance is enough for the washer to clear the little bit holding it in place, it can drop back to the spot that led to all of this. That would remove any clearance and therefor endplay.

...I think I just convinced myself to JB Weld again. But then I'll worry about the JB Weld not sticking to the case and coming off and clogging the oil drainage port. Maybe I worry too much.
_________________
1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built

[Wildthings]

Don't think I have ever paid it any mind before, but be careful you don't block off whatever passage the drains oil from the seal area.

[tmart]

Here's how my JB Weld fix turned out.

I ended up having to dremel a lot of it away to get the new thrust washer to fit. The reason I kept thinking I needed it turned out to be because the old thrust washer, which I was using as a guide until I got my new one, was deformed. Anyways, if anyone else has this happen to them don't bother with the JB Weld.

Glad this issue's taken care of. On to the next one!
_________________
1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built