My Detroit sandrail/pleasure craft... or "Carmela's Concession"

[heywebonya]

Have you looked at the RGB Redux thread? https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=260


There is a discussion on page 14

I have a Type I and Bus rear torsion housing and like the simple solution from Ian http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=538730

The Bus Torsion is 3" wider (44 1/2") than the Beetle. The bus plates are both thicker (0.2" vs 0.155") and taller (or wider) than the Beetle.
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If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy!

[dennismcd707]

Yea, I like what Ian did too. He never replied back to you, did he? Hmmm....... I'm thinking I should give it a try.

[dustymojave]

YES. Wheel hop CAN be used to advantage. It can also be a major DISadvantage. You can certainly try it out once the RGBs are installed and before you install a No-Hop setup to see if you really NEED the No-Hop.

Remember that the Bus torsion bars are longer than the Bug bars? That makes it wider at the ends of the spring plates where the axles mount to. You still need some fab work to mount the RGB axles to the spring plates. It's not just a simple matter of the shape of the ends of the spring plates.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[dennismcd707]

Well..... that picture I saw of the tranny that cracked in half spoke to me in a way that nothing else did. Wheel hop will probably be a huge issue, especially given the torque and H.P. of the new engines, so we might as well address the issue right from the start.

And yea, I understand there's more to mounting these RGB's than just boltin' 'em on....... like I had originally thought I'd be doing. (funny but true) Thanks to all who are helping me with this. One way or the other, I'll continue to share my progress and I'll continue to keep asking for help. (So Jeff, are we gonna have matching no-hop adapters? )

[heywebonya]

We will probably be making a set of adapters. (Or go to a lay back design....)
_________________
If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy!

[dennismcd707]

I have to say, being educated on the RGB set-up kind of took the wind out of my sails for a few days. I've been thinking........ man, what a waste of energy! All that work to salvage it out of the bus! All that time spent cleaning it! What about all the 1966 type 2 "BUS SHIT" I have in a box in the garage..... BRAND NEW?

All that work, just so I can put the trans in a corner and use another one instead, one that I know nothing about. Hell, the type 1 trans might not even work, I wouldn't know. The P.O. couldn't give me anything on it's history, so I'm kind of at Lady Luck's mercy. Actually, I don't know if the bus trans works either, but at least I know where it came from, and thus some of it's history. I'd prefer to not have to open up either one of these trans cases. I can change a nose cone or a side gasket or something easy, but that's about it. What's important to note here is.....why in the hell am I opening up a trans case?

One of the wheel bearings fell apart during disassembly, and it's pretty dirty on the inside. But just like I did on the bus gearbox, I'll clean it up with a few new gaskets, scrape most of the gunk off, and then give it a diesel fuel douche. When that's out of the way, I'll do as Geddy Lee suggests and I'll "roll the bones".

The nose cone is screwed up, so I'll try using the type 2 piece. It looks like it should work, so unless I'm told otherwise, we shall see. I'm also getting pretty tired of looking at all of this orange. Maybe tomorrow I'll get a gallon of good ol' gloss black, oil based Rust-Oleum paint and a couple of good brushes and go to town for a few hours.

Hmmm, I could listen to the new Robert Plant album. Yea, that might work! He probably likes sand rails that are black with touches of orange, don't you think vee dubbers? And since you know that I'm unable to weld anything or do much fabricating on my own, painting a rail with a nice inch and a half camel hair brush is certainly right up my alley!

[dennismcd707]

Yea, I can come back to the RGB's. All is not lost as I still have lots to do. I haven't finished my engines, the rail needs a complete braking system, e-brake as well..... including brake lines and disc conversion kit for the front. Plus the electrical wiring, a gear shifting mechanism, the tires and wheels, a few lights and gages, exhaust..... and on and on.

My goal is still MOBILITY FIRST! The painting is a minor distraction and shouldn't take up too much free time. And it's cold outside. And the Tigers just signed another mediocre starting pitcher for way too much money! (did I mention the ADHD?) Chrissie Hynde duets with Robert Plant as well as black goes with a hint of orange........ on the cool looking scale of contrasts of sand rail colors.

[heywebonya]

Dennis, I am also parking my RGBs until my buggy is running. There is nothing more frustrating than being stuck on a build and not being able to enjoy it.

The stock swing axle is a hoot and should be a straight forward installation.

Great job and I hope we can race around this spring. Are you planning to street legal yours or tow?
_________________
If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy!

[dennismcd707]

I'd like to be able to squirt some dirt with you this spring. If that happens, that means everything worked out on the build just the way it was supposed to. (whatever "that" means) No street driving is scheduled for this puppy either. Wherever I go with it, it's probably gonna be a tow bar.

I want to get this done quickly so I can have fun, but I also want to do it right. On the other hand, I'm spending quality time working on one of my hobbies, so who cares, right? It's not about having fun only when driving and spinning rubber. It's about having fun "OWNING & MAINTAINING" an air cooled VW based sand rail/pleasure craft. I'm in the garage in mid December, "having fun".......even when it's 20 degrees out, wearing 2 coats, a hat, gloves, long johns, 2 electric heaters going and "LONDON CALLING" by The Clash blaring through the speakers, and I'm working on rusty bolts, busting knuckles, and squirting liquid wrench in my eyes....because this is what I do for fun during my downtime. I have to remember that more often, and it helps when I write it down and see it. This is truly fun, or I wouldn't be doing it. Not being a dick... I'm truly looking at this as fun. I have to!

..... I just wished I'd have made some kind of mark on my torsion bars and housing for an easier re-install. Since I suck at re-engineering stuff, and am usually "just a little lost" doing mechanical things without an instruction manual, I'm usually pretty good about leaving myself bread crumbs for when I have to re-install or re-assemble something. I'm better mechanically when it comes to cars, but only because I've been around them since I was a kid......and have been driving 'em since I was 13. In fact, before I even turned 21, my buddy and I had already raced in 2 demolition derby's at the Michigan State Fairgrounds and one at the 4H fair in Davisburg Michigan. (I have pics......but wished I had some video! Fantastic memories.) Here's a photo of a few photos. The 1969 El Camino has always been my favorite and one of the coolest cars I've ever owned. I look at it when wrenching.

I've driven a lot of different types of cars, and have towed many too. I worked at a few different service stations in the Metro Detroit area (Birmingham mostly) from the time I was 16 until I was 24. Cars Cars Cars. I've made money from them, raced them, smashed them, had sex in them, been arrested in them, and have spent more time underneath them than I'd like to admit. But this was all in my youth, and I'm a bit rusty at having so much fun.

I never got rid of my tools, and what tools I don't have now, I just go out and buy. (Unlike the days of my youth, when we seemed to rent everything.) We'd rent gear pullers, engine hoists, torque wrenches, piston ring compressors, etc.... I think maybe we'd rent certain tools just so we'd have more money for beer and other earthly/heavenly things.

By the way, I finally got the front transmission mount off of the bus trans, and it looks like I'm in search of a different nose cone. (I uploaded this photo twice, and both times theSamba website gremlins turn the picture 90 degrees the wrong way. I thought it would be easier to view the nose cones the correct way, right side up, but apparently somebody doesn't agree, and I can't flip the photo on the website. Hmmmm.....)

Anyway, upon closer inspection, the type 1 and type 2 nose cones are not the same, and I'm not talking about the back up light switch. Oh well, no biggie. I suppose I should spend some more time researching, inside the house where it's nice and warm, but the garage is 49 degrees, so..... FUN FUN FUN

.

[pullstart]

RGB's or not, I enjoy reading your stories! Sorry, that's all I got today...
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4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.

my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0

[dennismcd707]

I'm glad to hear you like the stories. It's probably one of only a few things that I've ever been any good at.


...............and I really can't believe I forgot to say "BLESS YOU BOYS"!

Thank you baseball Hall of Fame electors (Modern Era committee), for FINALLY recognizing two 'All-Star' people and ex Detroit Tigers, Alan Trammell and Jack Morris. And as Ronald Reagan said in 1984: Bless You Boys!


.

[dustymojave]

The nose cones for VW Bug 1961 through 1972 are interchangeable with VW Bus swingaxle nose cone 1961 through 1967. The mount height is different. So if the buggy is set up for Type 1 Bug trans, then you need a Bug nose cone. 67 to 72 will have the back up light switch.

If I didn't say this before, putting a strap over the front of the trans where the front bearing housing meets the main case would be a very good thing to do to prevent that kind of nose cone failure again.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[dennismcd707]

A strap similar to this one? Also, when I removed the type 1 trans that came with the rail, it wasn't sitting all the way down in the front. It's also quite possible that the nose cone was already screwed up when the P.O. chose this trans to install in the rail.

...........and I'm almost positive that this particular transaxle has never propelled this rail. It just appears to me that somebody was piecing this thing together, but hadn't gotten very far. It's even possible that the rail has never been driven at all. I don't see any signs of any brake lines, electrical wiring, gear shifting capabilities, etc. And then there's all of that orange paint. It's covering everything, so I think somebody unburdened a donor Bug and built this rail. Then they covered it in orange paint, and began putting it together.

I've also decided to go out and get a new/rebuilt transmission. If I can justify spending 500 plus on a set of heads (TWICE, for 2 engines), or 900 plus on a new engine case (.....of course I bought 2), or almost 300 on a crankshaft, then it only makes sense. Spend $600 to $700 on a rebuilt trans, and move on. It's the smart move, right? Anybody? Everybody?

Sometimes it just takes me a while to make smart choices. (and sometimes I can peel off day after day of doing the exact opposite )

Dennis now owns an angle grinder. Dennis does not like to waste away hour after hour trying to cut through rusted bolts with an assortment of hack saws. Dennis is Santa. And after a week of not going out to the garage for anything, anything that is but a shovel or a snow blower, I think I'll spend a little time out there and see how much fun I can have.

Oh, and one more item I'm dealing with. I have a new engine stand and a bench model engine stand. I'd like to be able to modify the floor stand to accept the yoke (the male part) of the bench model. Remember, I don't weld, so I read about finding some PVC pipe, sticking it in the engine stands female part, and thus reducing the I.D.. The only problem I see is walking into Home Depot with my calipers, and finding the right combo of pipe(s). That's pretty hard when the pipes at the store are all 10 feet long. Then I'd need them to cut them into 4 to 6 inch pieces. Actually, I'd love to have them cut into 4 to 6 inch pieces JUST SO I CAN MEASURE THEM. So............ I see the trip to Home Depot as being a frustrating one.

[dennismcd707]

I've been reading a few engine building threads to get my pre-mantle juices flowing, and I have to say, I'm pretty damn excited. I figured out how to use the new floor model engine stand, which if I remember correctly, was advertised as being able to accommodate "foreign air cooled motors'. Well, it works.

And since I'm doing two engines (I'm such a moron. Why do I have two?), I figured it would be best to assemble them together. My basement is at least over 60 degrees (barely), so I'm moving downstairs (AND INSIDE) to begin the assembly process. I even bought my own surface plate so I could make accurate measurements. (I bet I probably went overboard here with the surface plate......., just like I did when impulse drove me to buy 2 new engine cases instead of just the one I needed.)

Hopefully I'll have a use for it. I wanted my own bench centers too, for checking crank run-out for example, but to find some in my price range wasn't happening. But the surface plate? Typical Dennis stuff......"IMPULSE BUYING-101"!!!)

So, I guess I'm gonna have to start a new thread in the ENGINE/TRANSMISSION forum, huh? Hmmmmm.......

[pullstart]

I'm gonna help you on that pvc question... within reason. And speaking for Home Depot, my local stores sell 2' sections if you don't want 10 footers... they are not 1/5th the price of a 10 footer though, more like 1/2 the price.

Schedule 40 PVC is typically labeled as ID (how much junk can flow through it), with a 1/4" wall. So... schedule 40 3" pipe is 3-1/2" OD and 3" ID. Cool, huh?

Dennis should get a welder, a sawzall and a torpedo heater for his garage. He should ask Santa to come back.
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4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.

my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0

[heywebonya]

Dennis should look on Craigslist for a Eastwood or Century flux wire welder. I built my first buggy with flux wire. Liquid steel is amazing!
_________________
If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy!

[heywebonya]

All pipe dimensions are available online look up schedule 40 pipe dimensions. What is the engine mount diameter and the vw diameters?
_________________
If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy!

[dennismcd707]

Male part-bench model - 1.570 inches O.D. approx.
Female - 1.600 inches I.D. approx.

Male part-shiny yellow floor model - 2.375 O.D. approx.
Female - 2.405 I.D. approx.

but to use the part that allows 360 deg. turning capability, I have to attach my bench model male part inside the male part of the shiny yellow floor model. This is because it has all the peg holes in it, which I would need to use for 360 deg. turning.

...........geez, like a catheter, omg. I guess the inside diam. of the male part of said colorful and clean stand is approx. 2.160 inches. So if I haven't gotten my thinking twisted somehow, the optimal pvc pipe dimensions would be: O.D. - 2.130 inches and I.D. - 1.600 inches

If I didn't have to use the peg holes, it would be easier............ I think

[dennismcd707]

..........and by the way, every time I post something where I mention I can't weld, I think I've been unknowingly planting a seed in my head. The question then pops up, "Dennis, any reason you can't learn to weld someday?" Especially given all the metal and steel I've been collecting lately. And I really need to get a gland nut welded to something so I can assemble my cranks while horizontal.

But yea, I need a vise really bad too. Sawzall...on my list, along with portable saw horses, come-along, a press, bench centers, and on and on, But you know what? I'm pretty damn lucky to be able to make a list and just start doing stuff. God Bless America, Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, Mother Theresa, and Joe Strummer and the Mescalaros! and John Entwissle and his buddy, Keith Moon. and Mr. Mercury, but that's it.

[dennismcd707]

Because I can't stand shopping at Home Depot, I kept putting off going there to scout pvc pipe. Well, I went, scouted, collected, and paid for 2 pieces of pipe. One 2 inch pipe and one inch and a half pipe. The smaller pipe had the correct I.D., so that was easy, but to get a snug fit in the hole, I had to use the other larger pipe as a shim.

I appreciate you guys helping me. I've never had a reason before to know much about pvc pipe, so just telling me "HEY DENNIS, LOOK UP SCHEDULE 40 PIPE SPECS" made it a lot simpler. Thanks again.

Sunday morning will be a special day in Eastpointe Michigan. That's when I'll get to unbox my brand new: Forney 29901 125 FC MIG Welder (All because you suggested it.......Now, can somebody suggest I go out and buy a GoPro camera too? I'd like to use it to document my engine mantling!)

..........and film myself dancing or playing air guitar to Robin Trower's "DAY OF THE EAGLE". Maybe an air guitar concert! I'll start with a song by "A BOX OF FROGS" and I'll sing and dance between welding sessions!